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Agile Recruitment - The Missing Step In Your Agile Transformation by Jakub Jurkiewicz


If we want to build agile organisations we need to recruit with agility in mind! If we care about people and interactions, we should create space for people to shine and where people can collaborate.
What if the candidate does not fit any of our boxes? How could we respond to that and embrace this opportunity? What about hiring for culture-fit? Or is culture-add is even more important? What could happen if we redesign our recruitment processes looking through the lenses agile values and principles?
In this talk we will explore how agility could help us shift the conversations in the recruitment processes, and how we could start recruiting for culture-add and hire people that will accelerate our agile transformations.
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Welcome, everyone to the Azure equipment missing. Step in your agile transformation by Jacob. Without further delay, I'm passing to Jacob. Thanks, Jacob. Hi, everyone. Doesn't just share my screen and we gonna take it away. As Trisha mentioned, my name is Yakuk. I'm originally from Poland, but I live in New Zealand. Now. It's nice late afternoon over here. And welcome. Today we're going to talk about Azure Recruitment, which I think is often the missing step in our Azure transformations journey. My name is Jacob. I'm the founder of Azure Coaching Club, which is quite unique training that I run for a job coaches here in New Zealand. I've been an Agile coach since 2013. And since last year I actually moved to a role of head of Engineering at Med Enterprises. And at Med Enterprises we are improving doctors well being. And today I will tell you a bit more about our journey, of how we change our recruitment processes and but hopefully we can learn from this as well. And let me just start my timer so that I can track my time. All right, before we jump into it, I must say that this experience of being here in New Zealand and you all around the world probably, I feel a bit lonely. It's very different from being in the same room, in a conference room where you can see people, you can see people interacting. So it feels a bit lonely. And that's why I would like to ask for your help so that you help me feel not so lonely. So I have three questions for you. If you can open the chat window and just answer the questions in the chat, that would probably help me feel less lonely and maybe help you focus a bit and warm up for the session. Okay, question number one. What has been the highlight of the conference so far? What have you seen heard in the conference yesterday and this morning? That's been a highlight for you. What would be the one thing you want to take away from the conference so far? And, yeah, if you can open the chat window and just paste your answer over there. Nice. Text pattern. Terrorist session, diversity of speakers. Outcome based approach. Nice. Cool. My next question for you is what is your hope for this session? What would you like to learn today when you join the session? It's a really important aspect in recruitment. Nice. Understand what we missed or where we can improve. Also, the secret sauce. Something new, something interesting. Cool. What to avoid. How age are recruiting. Yeah. Nice. Perfect, I think. I hope I can help you with that. Right, last question. What kind of a person do you need to be in this session? So you join the session, you know what your hope is. What kind of a person do you need to be in this session? Curious. Open minded, active listener. Listen. Curious. Listen to understand. Yeah. Nice. Perfect. All right, thank you so much. Engage interactive response to flexible adaptable. All right, I think we're gonna make it work. Then I will just turn my chat off. All right, thank you so much for engagement. I must say, I do feel less lonely. I know there are real people on the other side of the screen, even though I cannot see you. Okay, so HR Recruitment, what is it and why is it important? When we think about agility, we often think about teams. We think about collaboration, we think about crossfunctional teams. Teams consisting of people who can deliver value ends to end, who can idea the ideas, who can do discovery delivery, and we can do support. And people who trust each other, people who are transparent with each other. Teams of psychological safety teams where failure is okay, it's celebrated. And we learn from failure, right? So that's when we think about the JT, that's not the only thing that we have in mind, but that's often what we have in mind. And we see this team that collaborate, that spend time together, that laugh together, that hold each other accountable, idea the ideas. Yeah, teams that are really awesome and it's fun to be in. So this is the day to day of our teams. However, somehow when we get to recruitment, instead of recruitment looking like this or like this, it looks more like this, don't you think? Instead of having these teams that collaborate, that talk to each other, admit mistakes and they'll transcribe with each other, we have this us versus them mentality. We have this group of people that are on one side of the table or screen, and there's the candidate alone, not really feeling very safe, not really being able to admit to mistakes or weaknesses. And there's a company who's trying to find the best candidate, the candidate who fits their royal description, the candidate who's going to be next superstar. And there's a company that is often hiding certain things and not telling the whole story behind the company or what's happening in the teams. So we have this disconnect, I think, between what we want to achieve in our agile transformation in our agile companies, which is this and this and much more, of course. But when it comes to recruitment, we end up here. We end up in this artificial environment where trust is not really easy to get, where there's almost no transparency, when there's almost this acting game. You know, the candidate acts because they want to be hired and the company acts because they want to be chosen by the candidates, especially in the current market where we are fighting for the candidates. So I believe that if we want to get here, have crossfunctional teams with trust, with psychology, with innovation, we cannot keep doing this. We need to change this. And of course, this is an extreme example, but if you look at it and we're going to explore certain aspects of it. You will see how much of this disconnect we have. So in order for us to explore it a bit more, we're going to root the whole discussion around the modern agile principles. These are not my principles. They came from Joshua Karievsky. Four principles. They are not supposed to replace a geometry, but they are kind of the modern version of it. We have principles like make people awesome, make safety a prerequisite, experiment and learn rapidly, deliver value continuously. And if you think about recruitment and that's happening in your company, how you are recruited, how you recruit people to your teams, how the leaders you work with, how they recruit people. I wonder if you reflect on principles, how many of them you could say, yes, we follow these principles in our recruitment process. Yes, we are really aligned with these principles. Yes, we are making people awesome. Yes, we are making it safe during the interviews. Yes, we experiment and learn during the recruitment. Yes, we deliver value continuously. I'm arguing that it's not very common. First of all, we don't really reflect on that. We rarely look at how can we make our agile processes, our equipment processes more agile. And second of all, we don't look for the perspective of these principles. So I want to give you a bit of SuperPOD. First we're going to go through these principles, then I will show you some of the principles that we adopted at Met Enterprises and that we use to hire our people, our engineers. And then at the end, I will also give you some specific tips and tricks, techniques, tools that you can use, that you can introduce in your processes, and hopefully you can help build the culture you want to build. So we are going to start with making people awesome. How can we make our candidates awesome? Right? How often do we even think in this way? If you think about this, it's often, unfortunately, often the hiring managers and recruiters, they have almost the opposite thinking. How can we find all the weaknesses of the candidates? Because if you know the weaknesses, we will be able to decide if we can hire them or not. Instead of looking for strengths, you have to look for weaknesses. We find these tricky questions, or gotcha questions. We try to kind of catch the candidates on the way, how they maybe make mistakes. We rarely try to make candidates awesome. It's very unusual, I would say, and how we treat them from the moment of who, when they apply, how soon do we apply to them. When they apply, often it takes weeks. Often they don't hear from us for days or weeks. Seriously, even if they ask us for feedback, we don't give them feedback. Is it making them awesome? I don't think so. Another aspect of it is that we often, when you think about job descriptions and the job ads that we have online. They are almost like a box. Imagine that these job descriptions, these job ads are like a box. So in the box are all the things that we want from a candidate. The perfect candidate would fill the whole box of these requirements. And when we go through the recruitment process, we try to find out how is this person fitting into this box, how much of the things that we want to be in the box, how much does this person has. And fortunately, I would say people are not boxes. People are like these blobs, right? We have different set of experiences, interests, passions, knowledge. We are not squares, we are not boxes, we are blobs. And when you overlay this blob, over these requirements, often as a candidate, we have some things, some experiences, some knowledge that fit into the box perfectly. But some of it is way beyond the box. Imagine we are looking for a front end developer and we are looking hey, do they know JavaScript, do they know React? Do they know TypeScript, do they know storybook? And some other tools for testing and other stuff. And we are in the interview process, we are going to ask for proofs that this person knows everything that is in the box. But often, because we are focused so much on the box, we don't see the things that are around the box. So this person may be passionate about UX design, about user interviews, but because we are so focused on the box, we might miss that, we might not even ask questions about that. We may not give the candidate a chance to tell us I'm passionate about UX design and I can bring this skill to the team. And this means we are missing the wholeness of a person because you are so much focusing on the box. What makes people awesome is allowing them to show us the true self, everything that they can bring. While we often focus just on the box. And what it also means is that we often because of the box, we hire the same people again and again and again. We lack the diversity. And I don't mean diversity in terms of race or gender, I mean thinking diversity and experience diversity and mindset diversity, right? It is proven that we hire people that are just like us, who are very similar to us. That's why if we start looking outside of the box, we might start hiring people that are different than us because we created the box often or the hiring manager did, and they hire people like them. And the same as lame, it is true. We need people with diverse backgrounds, with diverse experiences. So how can we make people awesome? How can we make environment where they can tell us hey, I know this stuff, I know you didn't ask about this stuff in your job ad, but I know all of these have the richness of experience that I can bring to this team. All right, make safety appear because it's the second principle. How can you make the candidate feel safe during the whole process? And how is it right now in your companies? I know from my experience that there were many majority of my experiences where I didn't feel safe. I couldn't say that I failed, I couldn't say that I made a mistake during the interview. I couldn't say that I changed my mind. I was afraid to ask about the salary range. I was afraid to say that the offer was not good enough for me. I was afraid of the feedback I'm going to get or maybe that I wouldn't get any feedback. So there was a lot of insecurity and I didn't feel safe in these processes. How can we change that? How can we help the candidate to feel safe during the whole process? Because then again, then they can be awesome. Then they can show us the true self and we can truly understand what they can bring to us. And what about delivering value continuously? Just as in Azure manifesto, we have working software or comprehensive documentation. We say that because documentation doesn't matter how good it is, it doesn't provide any value to the customer. Only working software is the true value. Similar here, just talking, hearing the answers, it doesn't really give us a good picture of a candidate unless we are able to experience reallife scenarios procolaboration. Because remember, we want this person, when they join us, to join crossfunctional things, when they need to collaborate, when they need to learn as well. Sure, they can tell us all the stories from their past, but stories is like this documentation only through experience or in collaboration during the process can tell us what this person can do and how they behave. Talking is cheap, but action is hard. And lastly, sorry and often when we ask people questions and we ask them about the previous behavior, tell us how to resolve conflict, all they tell us is they tell us about past behavior. And past behavior is not the best prediction of the future behavior. The best prediction of the future behavior is their present behavior. So how can we get people to show us their current behavior? Because only because someone told us that, hey, I had this conflict with a colleague, I resolved it, I learned all of these beautiful things. But did they really? How can we create scenarios and situation where people can truly show the present behavior? Can you, for example, ask people as your candidates to join your team for a day and you pay the candidates because otherwise it's not really fair. They often need to take a day of leave. They join you for a day, they sign all the NDA's they need, you pay them for this work and they work with your team for a day and they get a chance to learn about the team. The team gets a chance to learn about them. They experience stuff. You can observe them, how they behave, how they show up in this team, which is very different from asking what would you do on your first day? You can see the difference here. I hope so. Again, experience real life scenarios for collaboration instead of just talking through the process. And lastly, it's about experimentation and learning. How can you experiment and learn together with the candidate? What's learning over there? Because you want them to learn when they join you, right? You want them to tell you, I don't know, you want them to experiment. But often the recruitment process is so rigid, we have step after step after that. We ask the same questions to every candidate. We don't allow any agility, we are not able to respond to change. But different candidates have different needs to be able to show that they are awesome. How can we experiment and learn together? I will be showing you some examples how we can do that. And to give you also an example why learning is important, here is a quote or message I got from Ray. We hired Ray last year. And after Ray wasn't looking for a jobberry, I reached out to him. I could see he had great experience. I reached out to him. He decided to have a chat with us. And after the interview, that's the message he sent me. He said I actually learned something about myself today. I also learned a few techniques for running the interview. He learned about himself. How often can your candidates tell you I learned something today in their interview? If you design the interview well or the whole process well, then they can say hey, I learned something today. And we had a number of candidates who we didn't hire, but they were really happy that they were part of the interview process because they said I learned something. I learned something about technology, I learned something about myself, I learned something about your company. They are learning. So the time they spend with us is not wasted. It's actually an investment into their learning process. Let me just get some water. And even if you don't, maybe you don't follow modern agile principles or you have some other set of values. And in our companies, often we have these posters on walls or wallpapers on screen savers where all these beautiful values float. Like we talk about being open and we trust and we are customer obsessed and we have collaboration. We believe in transparency, fund improvements, all of the beautiful stuff. But when it comes to recruitment, how open are you? How trusting are you? How candidly obsessed are you? Do you look for improvements? Do you look for collaboration, transparency? Is there space for these values in your recruitment process? Often there's not often. Recruitment is like this silo that we leave for the HR department and hiring managers and they repeat the same patterns. They hire people the way how they were hired. How can you change your culture? How can you change how people behave? How can you change the minds in your organization if you don't change how you hire people? And how can people believe in these values when they join you if you didn't follow them during your interview process? They will not believe in them because they couldn't experience them. And you need them to experience these values from day one, from the time they see your job at, that's the place. How does your job ahead look like? How's your process from the moment someone applies? How long do I need to wait for a reply? And what's the reply setting to them? How do you give them feedback? All of the things the design process should reflect your values. OK, I hope it got you interested and got you thinking. I will get more specific now, bit by bit and show you how we apply it at Mid Enterprises. What are some techniques and yeah, we're going to debate at the end and there will be time for questions as well. Okay, here is I've got two screenshots from the conference page in our company and here are the principles we use when we do recruitment. First of them is hire for Culture at, not just Culture Fit. And Culture Fit is this buzzword we use all over again, like all the time. We need culture fit. We need culture fit. But what if our culture is not great? What if we want to change culture through our transformation? That's part of our transformation. We talk so often we need to change the culture, the culture, its strategy for breakfast, all of this stuff, but then we have to be hire for Culture Fit. If you keep hiring for Culture Fit, you will not change your culture. You need to hire for Culture ed. That's why we say that we try to see how the candidate can add to our culture and change the culture in the direction we wanted to change. So not Culture Fit, how they can change the culture, how they can help us change the culture. Okay? Second, we talk about being equal partners. So we are equal. If you ask them questions, they need to have time to ask questions to us. If they invest time to meet us, we need to invest time to meet them where they are. We are not above below the candidates. We are equal partners in these interviews, we are not better, which is often that's what's perceived like we are often we see ourselves and the candidates can see us as kind of having higher status. How could we lower the status? Because again, we talk about flat organizations and destroying the hierarchy in your organizations. But in recruitment there's a huge hierarchy. We are often, as hiring people about the candidate, how we can make it a bit more even or even truly even, if possible. We also believe in that the choice is made both ways. So it's not only us choosing the candidate, it's also the candidate needs to choose us. What we want. We want the candidate to be certain they want to join us. We want them to say hell yes, absolutely, I want to join them. We don't want them to have any hesitations because if they feel warm, it's a recipe for disaster. They will quit very quickly, or they might. And if they look warm when they join us, if they have some hesitations, this will just keep growing. It's really hard to get from there through excitement to through engagement as we hire them. When they say yes, I absolutely want to join you, then they are at the peak of the engagement and we can just help them stay there. And something similar to making the candidate awesome, we call it the candidate is the star of the interview. They should be able to show the best version of themselves. We spend some time in the interviews making sure the candidate feels comfortable. We also going back to being equal partners often the interview. So going back to here, sorry, we would often ask the candidates, tell us something about yourself, and they have 510 minutes to tell us something about themselves. We often don't tell them about ourselves, about our backgrounds, about our desires, about our experiences that we bring to this interview, to the team. So we would always start instead of asking us about yourself, you would say, hey, let us tell you something about us, so that you know who you talk to, so that you know why we are here. So yeah, we spend some time going back to the candidate being the start of the interview. We spend some time helping the candidates feel comfortable. We ask them do you have something to drink? Especially they are remotely if they are in the room, we actually bring water for them and do you need anything else? Would you like to have a couple of minutes just to breathe and yeah, do you have some water? How do you feel right now? We give them time to think as well during the interview. I will talk a bit more about this in a moment about how we often how we tend to make the interview much easier for extroverts than introverts. We avoid gotcha questions. We make sure that every question we ask, we are able to answer these questions and we feel comfortable answering these questions. And we set up working agreements, which is a big part of making sure that the candidates feel comfortable. So the beginning you would ask what needs to be true for you to feel like a star of this interview? What needs to be true for you? And people often say that they need time to think, that they are shy, that sometimes maybe they are English in their second language like it's mine. And they sometimes say, hey, sometimes I don't understand what people say. And that's awesome because now we know, okay, we know what environment we can create, what to watch out for, so that they can feel better in this interview. Like we have working agreements for our teams, why wouldn't we have with our candidates? Okay? And in the working agreement, then we also tell them, hey, it's okay if you want to think before you give us answer. Hey, it's okay to make mistakes. Hey, we will tell you when we disagree with you, are you okay with that? And we create these working agreements, how to make this environment better for them. And then the last principle that we follow is looking for growth mindset. So not only what they can do now, but how they can grow, how they want to grow, what are their interests for the future. And I will show you a couple of techniques how we can look for that as well. I hope you can see already how it's different from your typical recruitment processes, how it can change who you hire, how you hire, how it can change what sort of values you show you present through this different process. All right, let's talk about some examples. Something I already told you about using real life. So, using real life examples as the interview mechanism. And I think one of the worst things, but also what's very common is asking the candidate to perform, for example, a software engineer, asking them to do some coding live during the interview for like half an hour, an hour, and everyone observes and then they do this coding on their own. I think it's terrible. I think it's very terrible because it has nothing to do with real life experience. Real life scenario, it puts the candidate under a lot amount of pressure and it doesn't look like this when they join, right? You wouldn't have bunch of people observing one person doing programming. If anything, they'll be collaborating, there will be mob programming, all of them will be throwing ideas out or they will be preprogramming, working together, bouncing ideas together, exchanging ideas, pointing out what things can be done better. It's never that there is one person sitting in front of a monitor and doing programming while everyone is watching that pressure is not needed. It's not natural. If you want to have sustainable pace, you don't want to have this pressure. So why do we have this pressure during the interviews? Some candidates, they cannot be the best version of themselves in this environment. That's why asking them if you really want them to do some coding, maybe. And if you cannot, invite them. Best scenario, invite them for 2 hours, 4 hours a day to join your team and actually work on real code together, do a mod programming session, do a pair programming session, do tag design together. I don't know what but do something on real code. That's the best scenario. If you can't do that. We found that asking people to do some coding before maybe giving them codecast or some example that they may encounter when they join you. Asking them to do it on their own is much better because they can be relaxed, they can ask friends for help and that's often what we are afraid of. Or what if they ask a friend for help? Or what if they google the solution? That's awesome because when they join you, you want them to be able to Google. You want them to be able to use their friends for help. You want them to bring this safety net or this pool of resources with them to your company, don't you? So even if they ask for help, then of course you talk about this call with them and you have a discussion. What do you agree with them, what do you disagree? You ask them why they made this decision, why they use this design pattern over the other one. You can ask them how to automate this tab, how to deploy it. You can have this question to better understand how much they truly understood or didn't understand. But it's a very different environment and it also shows respect and trust. Hi, I trust you that you will put the best version of yourself into this cult. Just spend maybe maximum 2 hours on this and let's have a conversation later. Another thing is around collaboration and we talk about ownership and teams owning their processes and teams owning the finishing of done and the quality and deployments and support. But somehow we often forget that the team should also own the hiring process or at least be very involved. If we involve the team, if they get a chance to have their say about who we hire and how we hire, they will own this. They will own the onboarding of this new person. They will own the success of this person because they have chosen this person. That's part of their responsibility. Now it's very different from a chapter lead, just hiring people and dropping them into teams. It's very very different. So since you work as a team, let's interview, let's recruit as a team as well. How can you bring more people into the recruitment process? Because again, going back to diversity, hiring managers hire people like themselves. So the more people you bring to the interview process or the recruitment process, the more diverse set of people you can hire. And what about safety? How can you enable safety? Part of the working agreement, we tell the candidate that it's okay if they want to stop the activity and reset it and start from scratch. Sometimes what happens is that they would give us an answer or they would start writing some code and they will realize five minutes in that hey, I actually would have started it differently. And that's. Okay, we want to hear that. We want to hear when they say hey, maybe I made a mistake, can I correct that? We own that. We want that perfect mindset. That's what we want to hear. And when they say that we say hell yeah, let's do it, let's start from scratch, let's rewind. Similarly, we ask them for permission to interrupt them and to stop them. For example, when we disagree, when we think there was a difference in our mind, better where to start or to do something, you say hey you know what, you'll do it differently. Can we start with writing tests first? Because that's what we do. And this builds trust, this builds understanding how we approach things, how they approach things. So when we want them to choose us, they know how it works. They know how what we think, they know what decisions we make that enables safety, safety for them, safety for us. And also we are very clear about that from the very beginning that it's OK throughout the whole process and especially during the activities that we do with them that is very very okay. It's actually expected for them to say I don't know and we celebrate. And they say when they say that they don't know stuff, we say when we don't know stuff. And that's huge value of an agriculture. We tell them we expect you to say you don't know stuff when you don't know. We don't want you to pretend, we don't want you to guess. Tell us you don't know something. We're going to either move on and we'll help you. We'll maybe guide you for your process thinking. Okay, allow them to say I don't know. But make it very explicit. Don't assume that they know that they can say I don't know. Actually say we want you to say I don't know if you don't know. And then when they do celebrate it. Something I mentioned before is how silence is important. If you want to have a diverse set of people, if you want people to be the stars of the interviews we need to allow them. You need to cut it for their personality types. And often in their interviews, especially when there is a lot of talking, good people in talking, like extroverts people, people who love Fukan storytell. They are great in interviews. Often well, not always, but sometimes they're not so good at actually work. They are good at talking. We don't want them to be so good at talking. We need them to be good at what the job is about. And we often miss out on some of the more introverted people who need time to think, who need time to reflect. So that's another thing we make sure we do. We tell them hey, if you need time to think we can sit in silence with you, that's okay. And we will because we want them to have time to reflect. Again, going back to software engineers when they often have their job isn't about typing. They're not monkey is just typing. Typing is just a side effect of what they do. Their main task is problemsolving through thinking. And they have great ideas when they take showers, when they make coffee, when they go for walks. They're often alone. When they can deeply think and reflect. And often that's missing. In our recruiting process, we don't allow for that because we have this very rigid plan. We need to go for these ten questions or these three activities and we need to rush with and we run out of time and then blah, blah and we are gone. And these people, they don't have time to think. How can we change that? How can we extend the time by 1520 minutes? Why not? Alright, now I'm moving on. We have eight minutes left. I'm going to go through a different set of tools. I hope that they can be useful for you. Personal canvas is one tool where you can allow people to actually reflect before the interview and bring something prepared. This is a set of questions we ask them about. We tell them you can interpret this areas any way you want, just bring it with us. And we ask them in the interview to give us highlights. It can truly tell you much a lot about who they are. And here is an example of a field personal canvas, how it would look like. Another tool that we use is called moving motivators. You may know it from the management 30 Toolkit. We often use it with schemes to talk about what motivates them. But you can also use it with your candidates to discover what their inner motivation is about. So we can use the physical cards, but we also can use it remotely. Here is a screenshot from our mirror board. You can see at the top is a frame for thomas was our one candidate. At the bottom there's also a frame for me as a hiring manager. So again, equal partners. Not only they're doing the active design, telling us about something that is very deep and true for them, I will share what's true for me as well. And if I have another person with me in the interview, they will share what's true for them as well. Because Thomas in this case needs to know if he joins my team. He knows that my motivators are curiosity and goal. Okay? And you also say it's okay if we have different Motivators than I do. That's actually great because it brings diversity again. So here you can say, see, we asked Thomas out of the ten motivators, what are your two strongest motivators and two weakest motivators? And we have a conversation about that. Why is it important for you? Why is it not important for you? What does mean for you? And we can better understand who they are, how they work, how they think, what they feel and they can better understand us. So at the end, again, they can say I absolutely want to join this team. Another tour is called Career Forecast, which is basically mapping people's experience and interests. So you have these two dimensions. One is the vertical one is about what they like to do and what they don't like to do. And the horizontal one is about the experience level. Here I have example from maybe two or three years ago when we were hiring a Scrum Master. So we would on a piece of paper we would put main responsibilities. It's usually somewhere between ten or 15 pieces of paper or postits. And first we ask the candidate can you order it like a backlog? So two things cannot be at the same level. So it needs to be ordered from the thing that you like the most. The thing that you like the least to do. That's how it looks like. So you can see that this candidate said that, hey, what I enjoyed the most was facilitation of Scrum events in teams other than mine. That was super interesting. Why was it not at all? We could ask these questions. You can also see that the fourth item here on the list is Upskilling, that they added themselves because we asked them what's missing here and where would you put it? So we allowed their input here. Upscaling was really important for them as a part of Roll Up Scrum Master, which is awesome to learn. And that's what I didn't have to do. We could explore that as well. Why was that? And then we asked okay, with this in mind, move the pieces of paper to the left or to the right. Things that you can do and that you need help with. And now we can see, okay, we will need to mentor this person in these areas and how this person can help us, what sort of helping to bring to them. Here's another example. The set up here is a bit different. This is a mirrorboard, but we did something very similar. On the bottom right you can see there is infrastructure as a code that this person was really interested in learning that, but she was not very experienced with it. Which means that if in our team we get a chance to work with infrastructure as a code, we interpret manage for this person. But if we don't have a chance to work with infrastructure as a code, is our team the best person, the best place for this person? Maybe there's another team that deals with infrastructure as a cult and this person should join them instead of us. So this allows us to explore different dimensions of experience and desires and passions, emotional culture. That's something I talked about two years ago at this conference. So maybe that's something to look on YouTube. This allows us to talk hey, how do you feel in this interview, how do you want to feel in this team? And again, I would do the same. How I feel as a hiring manager in this interview and how I want to feel, how I don't want to feel. That's something to check out. Invite an operating invitation. Give them a range of five different activities and ask them which one should we do? Respond to change, respond to their desire, respond to what they choose, what's going to help them show the best version of themselves. And they bring you feedback. Seriously. Make sure there is ten minutes, 510 minutes for feedback and ask what did you learn? Tell them what you learned. What did you learn about yourself today? What did you learn about the role, the team, the company that can be very useful feedback for you. Ask what would you improve or change? What we could improve or change? How can you improve the process and how could the improvement change impact you? And why does it all matter? Because it allows you to live your values. It shows that it care for your people. It invites people to engage. It creates space where everyone shares and learns and creates real diversity. And going back to my initial point, you hire for Cultural Fit. You will not change the culture. Maybe you should consider hiring for Culture Fit to transform the culture. I can see we are almost the time. So I want to ask you for one idea that you like to try, but I think we're going to see that. To make sure we have time for questions. Here are some resources you can check out later. I'm happy to make sites available and thank you. What questions do you have? Thanks Jacob yakub, thanks for the session on NQ and A. I would see one question. So there's a question by Prashant, who is asking? As per my understanding of what you said, it is okay to allow the candidate to take help like Googling rather than having a college exams type interview. But the point is, how can we be sure if he or she can use their brain when needed rather than seeking the help and support for everything? In such scenario, we would like to know how she or he can deliver without any help and support. Whose and other people are very busy. But would you turn off their internet? Would you not allow them to use Google or Stag overflow at work or GitHub? That's a question for me. I wouldn't. People can use Google all the time. They do. That's what programming is about right now. So why wouldn't you allow this during the interview? If you truly want to check some sort of analogical thinking, maybe make a small part of your interview process about that. But it should be an exception. It shouldn't be the whole thing. You should try to interview as close to the environment you have at work because you want to see how they behave in that environment. Because I may not remember how bubbles works, but as long as I can Google it and implement it, that's what you want. That's how you get velocity of work. That's how you have you hire people who can do the job. Not only who know all the algorithms possible or the techniques. These are the things people who know how to do their job. I hope it had questions. Thank you. Thank you, Ko. Thanks for the session. Thanks, everyone. Hi.