Video details

Building Your Career Like a Product: A PM's Take

Career
06.01.2022
English

Presented by Women Who Code CONNECT Recharge 2022 Speaker: Huma Hamid (she/her), Product Manager @ Cisco CONNECT Recharge 2022 Playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVcEZG2JPVhcLkMbJ3TkSajGDfFNOdCEd
Careers and products have a few things in common e.g. they have a lifecycle, they require vision, investment and feedback and there is a ROI. To stay relevant in today’s competitive and fast moving workplace, building your own career has gone from a “nice to have” to a “necessary to have” need. Even if you don’t consider yourself to be ambitious or career driven, the chances that you will outgrow your existing role, team, company or industry are very high. In this talk I would like to cover the fundamentals of building products (vision, strategy, roadmap, prioritization, performance indicators, feedback-loop) that can also be applied to building an impactful, agile, revenue generating career.
💻 WWCode Digital Events: https://www.womenwhocode.com/events 🔎 Job Board: https://www.womenwhocode.com/jobs​​​​ 💌 Make a Donation: https://www.womenwhocode.com/donate

Transcript

So great. We can get the ball rolling. Thank you so much for joining again Trail. I'm Eliza Sarabasa from Moocco in Vancouver. I've been a moderator for the session Building Your Career Like a Product of PM's take He Mohamed, and I'll try not to speak too quickly for your bio, but it's a very impressive biohammed. Has worked at several global tech companies on engineering and product teams with the focus on building scalable platforms and digital products to serve industries such as infrastructure, structure, engineering, network engineering, digital learning, and customer experience. She has led multiple digital transformation initiatives and is currently a product manager at Cisco. She's the co founder of US based global nonprofit Pakistani Women in Computing. Thank you so much for agreeing to speak of the session today and joining the new Code conference. And I'll have the talking stick to you. Thank you so much for the introduction, and I've been calling women who called for a very long time, and this is my first session, but it feels like I've known this community for such a long time, and I'm just very excited to bring throughout my journey to this amazing community. So let me get started with sharing my screen. Awesome. Can you see now? Yes, it's perfect. All right, I'm going to disappear, but I'll be out. All right, thank you so much. Thank you, everyone, for being patient and for being here to listen to this conversation. I have been working in tech for more than ten years, and in these ten years, I have lived in three different countries, relaunched my career multiple times. I've also worked in five different global companies, various different engineering and product teams, and also transition through job roles within engineering, program management, and now recently, product. So when I look at my whole journey, I really want people to learn from as a community, as we are learning from each other, there's an opportunity to connect and learn and take advantage of other people's experiences and exposures and learning. So that's why I'm here. And I'm really excited to share how I went from being blocked in several different occasions within my career and going to unlock. So I haven't used the word from blocks to unblock because as I grew and as I gained more awareness, it was more of unblocking and then unlocking things I didn't know about myself, things I didn't know about how to build a career and also how you navigate and align yourself with the ever changing world that we currently live in. So I started as a software test engineer 15 years ago and through the passage of different transitions, right now, I'm a product manager. I'm also a mom, two very awesome active boys, and being a mother, having a full time job and launching a nonprofit and being a mentor to many women, particularly women who want to go back to work. I mentor a lot of internship candidates, and they have successfully been placed back in the workforce. These are some of the passions that I have and I just wanted to share how I use my own different points in my career. When I felt blocked and I felt stagnant, when I felt I don't know how to get out of this. And not only getting out of that, but also inspiring other people to take similar paths wherever it works for them. Everyone has a unique path and also you're not just surviving, you're thriving in your career. Okay, so I'm choosing to talk about career and product. What I've learned through my phases of different life cycle that we call it the traditional view is that you get education, you get out of school, you land a dream job, you continue to go through that, maybe you're interested in climbing the ladder, get leadership roles and then everything is awesome. You feel fulfilled, you feel that you are doing exactly what you set up to do like many years ago and then you happily retire. The industry that we currently live in has changed and product lifecycle, if you really look at that product lifecycle also starts with something similar. Like we get education, somebody is creating a product. Like as a product manager, if I look at it, I'm building a product, which means I'm setting the product so it can be launched into the market and it can grow from there, it can scale from there and it gains adoption and engagement from the users. So when you look at the product, it's also a lifecycle of continues building something, introducing it to the market, growing it, scaling it, bringing it to maturity, once it fulfills the need of the market and then eventually when it becomes out of when it's not relevant to the market anymore or the users that are using it, then eventually a product retires. Right now we live in an ever changing world, especially post covert, additional frustration ation innovation. And everything has accelerated the pace at which we were dealing with these changing scenarios. So there's one aspect that is missing in both lifecycle, which is pivoting, which is transitioning, which is constantly aligning. And we can learn that from products that products that are constantly aligned, taking that iterative continuous feedback from the market and continue to pivot or improve the features that they offer. They stay longer in the market and they continue to grow. And they may not be the same product core product that was introduced many many years ago, but if they continue to stay relevant, they survive, they thrive and they grow. We can take the same concept into careers like what we set out to do when we left school or steer college or what our first job may have looked like as we go through different seasons of life cycle of building a career. It's also a lot of staying relevant, staying aligned, and then still achieving fulfillment. But it may not be a monolith concept anymore. It may be broken down into different milestones, different seasons, I would say, of your career. But you continue to do that as you grow. So both products and career, they both have a vision. Like when you graduated from school or when you set up to when you join the industry, you may have a vision to become somebody, to offer something to the world, to the industry, or it may be a fulfilling experience for you. There are certain passions that may have motivated and drove you and you wanted to become that person through your career. And that was your vision and what was the impact that you could create? Similarly, when we are talking about products, it's something similar like what are we building? Who are we building this for? How it's going to change their life, the users, how it's going to impact them? What's the value that we are creating? So for me, when I look at career and product, not just that they have a life cycle, they also start with some sort of understanding and vision that follow throughout building that. All right, this is my most favorite slide because I think this clicked me very recently. So as product managers, when we are building a feature or when we are launching a product, we're always looking at how it's fulfilling the market. So product market fit is to what degree a product fulfills or it meets the requirements or a need in the market? What value do you deliver? And also is it something the price points and everything, is it also relevant to the market that you're serving? Sometimes the product is awesome. If it's to our price, nobody is going to buy it. Sometimes the price is right, but the feature set is not compelling enough and sometimes there is no market for that. So for a product to be really successful, there needs to be somebody who is willing to buy. There is a price point that they can buy it for. You are also getting back like you're generating revenue from that product and it's a profitable activity for you. And whatever the set of features that you're building, they all need to combine and the overlap is the product market fit. However, when we look at our career, if we apply similar concepts there, your skill set is the core product features, like what problem can you solve through your skill set? Are you an architect? Are you a developer? Are you a product manager? Are you a designer? So all of that needs to align with the market, which is what jobs are out there, what jobs need to be done. And then the benefits that you receive in response to doing that job, are they aligned with your growth as well and somebody is actually willing to pay you for that. So all of that when we're looking at a particular job or a career, it's not just the skills that we have, like who is looking for that skill and what do we get in return? Incentive is not just money. It can be your other benefits, it can be your vacation, your family and work balance and all of that. What kind of incentives are compelling for you to take a particular job for which your skill set is matching? So next time you're looking at a job, also look at or when you're looking at pivoting your career, also look at am I a market fit? Am I offering what this market is looking for? And this market is offering what I'm looking for. All right, so products also, you cannot just create them in a vacuum. They do require investment, be it money to continue building features, to scale it, to grow it, or is it the right set of people? Is the team that is building it? Is it the stakeholders that are invested in it and the market who is still wanting that product? And how do you prioritize all of that, especially the features that you're building? How do you continue to invest in that, sustaining the existing features, plus introducing something new that is delightful experience to your end users. So similarly, if you use the same concept in career development, you can also look at how much money you're investing, which can be how much money you are investing in your learning, in your development. Maybe you're taking any coaching, maybe you're taking new certifications and courses. What kind of network do you have? Are you connected to sponsors? Are you connected to mentors? How they are invested in your career, what kind of feedback they're providing, what kind of help they are offering you so you can grow and how much time you're investing. Not just doing the day to day function, but also growing and scaling and exposing yourself to future opportunities. Because carrier can be stagnant if you're not constantly looking at how we are growing in this. If you're a technical expert like new technologies coming in, maybe it's the depth that you need. It's the latest and the newest ways of solving problem in your area of domain and expertise. That's what's more relevant. But if you're somebody who requires more breadth of experience, then where are you exposing yourself? What kind of experiences you are gaining so you continue to stay relevant, but all of that effort that you put in can be considered as an investment. Just like we keep the product relevant by constantly investing in building the right features, pouring in the money where it needs to be. Is it marketing, is it branding? Hiring the right team and then making sure that your stakeholders are also aligned and invested in the success of it. All right, the next one again, my favorite is the feedback loop. So for a product manager, the feedback loop is very important. We do not want to create things in isolation, things or features or capabilities that nobody is using or they're not actually serving the user and helping the user to get the job done that they want done from a product, or if it's not providing the delight that they're looking for from that product. So there is a constant discovery and feedback loop that product managers use to keep their product. Again, I'll use the word aligned and relevant to the users. Otherwise you will start losing the leverage, you will start losing the money. If you're a subscription base, maybe people are not finding it relevant anymore. So you will end up having that churn that users are dropping out. So if you use the similar concept in your career, it's basically your performance reviews, the feedback that you're getting from your team members, from your mentors, from your coaches, or anyone who is helping you, providing you that loop where you can always take that information, go back, improve it and come back bringing a better version of your career. So feedback very important for products, equally important for careers. How it's done, who are you doing it with? Of course that's different. But when you do interviews, I see a lot of people when they are doing interviews, if interviews are not successful, we usually get discouraged. Consider if we take that if we are taking that interview and the feedback that came from it, sometimes most of the time it's no feedback. But consider, silence is also feedback. Maybe there was a lack of alignment on their part. You were an excellent candidate, but they didn't have the right job for you. It has nothing to do with your capability or your strengths and what you offer. But interviews not successful, particularly the ones that didn't go very successful, can also offer you an opportunity for a couple of things. One, do I need to prepare more? Do I need to prepare different or do I need to really look for a different company or different job or different team? This may not be or just wait for that cycle to pass and reapply. Maybe next time they have an alignment and you get the job. So I have failed so many interviews in my career and every time initially I used to be very discouraged. But then once I started looking at interviews as an opportunity to take that feedback and be prepared for it, that's when I think things really started to change for me. Very important things for product managers is to measure the features that are building, how those features are performing, how is the adoption, how is the acquisition, how is the engagement on all of those features? So you can also define a success matrix for your career. Like what am I getting in return? Do I want better salary? Do I want better title? Do I want something more challenging and different? Is it fulfilling for me? Is it providing me all the benefits of having a balanced work and life so whatever that success criteria looks like for you and it can be very different from different people, but have that success criteria. And as you're growing, is your career still aligning to the values and your fundamentals that you are measuring and it can change. What is relevant to me three years ago is not relevant to me now, but there's something else that is relevant to me at the moment. All right, this one is also my favorite thing. When we looked at the life cycle for career as well as for products, we looked at them as they go through a very predictable cycle, which in most cases it's true. However, there are two things that I want to present when we are talking about pivoting. One, there is always an opportunity when you go out of relevance as a product, there isn't always an opportunity to pivot back. Either provide new features, features that are more relevant, either tapping into new markets or finding new opportunities, serving new user base, looking for a new price point. So there's so many different ways a product can pivot if a product is becoming irrelevant to the market that they are currently serving. Similarly, if you are finding yourself that your carrier for some reason has gone to that stagnation, you can always go back and see if you need to learn new skills. Maybe you have new interests that you want to explore. Maybe there are new opportunities in the market, job market that aligned, that are now aligned to your interest. Or you have transferable skills that you can take from one job to the next job. So maybe there is a minor skill gap that you want to fill and it can be filled through learning. Maybe there is a different industry that can offer you more opportunities because there are less people available in that specific industry that can fill that gap. And maybe there are new job roles, more hybrid job roles where your core skill set combined with another skill set offers a new position. I do want to mention that we are living in a very in a market, especially after covet that leverage. What I mean by this, that any company who has the right talent to build, to lead the digital transformation or innovation and the right products, innovative products, that company has a definite advantage over other companies who do not have the talent that can meet the needs of this new and changing and changing world. And you may have also heard that announcement from Microsoft recently that they have given the inflation, they have decided to increase the pay for their employees because they do not want to lose the talent. They want to retain the talent that is already there. It's very hard for them, for any company for that matter, to build the talent, grow them and then end up losing them. Right now it's a very talent I would centric market. If you have the skills. If you can offer that skills to meet the needs of the market, then companies will be able to hire you. However, you just need to do that analysis and that skill gap, like what exactly are you missing? Can I fulfill that gap through exposure experience or training and learning in education? So all of that can really help. But remember that Pivoting is such a natural part of our careers right now. And it doesn't have to be like one Pivot and it doesn't have to be just one. If you're familiar with software development, there is a continuous development lifecycle you iteratively build. And that's where you can always bring, you can stay relevant. Once you find that this doesn't serve me anymore, move on to the next cycle. So I'm not sure if there's a right to say that we are the product of our career, what we are building. But I think when we say that this is my career. So my vision, my skill, my experience, exposure, education, how much I am investing in it, what my passions are regarding my career, how much I'm interested in continuous growth and scale and what kind of alignment I have with the existing market. It really boils down to who you are, what you offer, what you're looking for and what you receive in response to that. So it's a lot of alignment from your external environment to what you offer and then what the environment is offering to you. It's not just one way. Your company, your team, your industry also needs to offer that, needs to reciprocate where the alignment is and that's where the thriving career part comes in. It's a continuous cycle. This one. When we look at our figures, we may look at them from a very organized, structured but I'm a fan of Legos and I'm a fan of building blocks and I love buying for my kids. We have like the gigantic size from the tiny little Lego. But the one thing that I really learned from these activities, when my children are building these, they can build whatever they like and if they don't like it, they can go back and rebuild and retry. I know when we talk about careers, it may look like a big piece of monolith that we have based our career, based on our education or experience. But there is always opportunity to keep building it and building it to the point where you keep finding that alignment of opportunity. In some seasons of our career, we may require more experience or as we go more into leadership roles or nontraditional roles, then we may require more exposure. If it's something that is more technical, you may require more education. But instead of going back to school, you may now be doing all of these things in smaller chunks and smaller pieces through training, certifications, online courses, being part of communities, amazing communities, like women who code, doing some consulting work stretch assignment, freelancing, even volunteer work. Just reading the news about industry, where industry is going and how you are relevant to that. And also doing a self analysis, self awareness, what really drives you, what really motivates you, and then finding the right coaches, mentors, sponsorship until you get to that opportunity. But all of that different. People may need different combination of this for some education, maybe the most significant blog that they need to build. And for somebody else, it may be just a network that they are missing. But either way, whatever you're missing, just know that there are multiple blocks that you need and you need to acquire throughout the lifecycle of your career. And as you continue to pick those pieces through different experiences, from different avenues, you put them together and they may present the opportunity that you're looking for. However, you also need to understand that there is a lot more that we need to be aware of. Like we hold ourselves accountable. We are the ones who make sure that there's a discipline and there is an ownership here and we are building that confidence before anybody else will invest in us. There's definitely mentors and sponsors and programs that can help you, but you may not be able to benefit from all of them if there's ownership is not on you. So once you take the ownership, you run with discipline, you run with self accountability, then all of that will start showing you the results that you're actually looking for. So, for me, my theory has been a constant act of building. Finding the right components, finding the right Legos and blogs and putting them together until I found what I was looking for. And then a few years later, I found, okay, this was exciting, this was good. Now I'm looking for something different. And in many cases, it was not even my choice. Especially moving countries, changing jobs, having major life events like having children, getting married, and all of that can really impact what your plans and goals are. And you can still have the same vision, but how you put things together, it can vary for everyone. And that's where I think just really breaking a bigger problem down into smaller pieces and successfully executing on all of them before you get to that fulfillment and alignment of your career and then start over again. So that's my talk. And I'm available on LinkedIn. If you want to connect with me, I would be happy to connect with you. And with that, I will stop here and see if there are any questions. Emma, I'm so impressed. You finished two minutes earlier. I don't want to stop her flow. She's like really on a roll. Thank you so much for the presentation. I'm so excited to review this as a recording too, to let the ideas marinate and then lean more insights so I can start with the questions. I'm going to Sticky. So one of the first questions was how do you manage or possess that energy to improve yourself at work on a daily basis while handling children and family simultaneously? That's actually a very good question. And this question has also evolved for me when I started. And I do want to mention that some of us, we do come from cultural backgrounds where there is perceived as the primary responsibility of managing home, managing children, managing everybody's life is responsibility that falls on women. So there are a couple of things that I have changed in my life. First of all, I had to let that bias, that I would consider, that bias against myself, that I had for myself, that I need to be somehow perfect, doing everything all the time with utmost perfection. That was the first bias that I had to let go. The balance that we knew existed, where everything needed to happen every day, every time, does not exist anymore. So now I take again a very modular approach. There are times in my month or years or days when a certain thing has higher priority. It can be work, it can be family, it can be my own health, and it can be my volunteer work. So I go through those phases. Which priority am I picking today? Which priority I'm picking this week? Which priority I'm picking this month? And I have gone through all of that. Secondly, I also learned that it doesn't hurt to delegate delegates to your family, to your friends, to your teammates, to your colleagues, people that you're working with, your life partner, and also involve them in this whole process. So the act of delegation and the act of prioritization, staying focused and not trying to do everything all the time at the same time has really helped me conserve my energy to stay passionate about things that I do and while I take care of my family, my relationships, my job, and other things. So that kept me going. I don't choose everything all the time. I choose whenever something is. What's the most important thing to solve? And I think as product managers, that's also one thing that you juggle, learning. To prioritize and how many juggling balls and air. And I think that's that great quote, like, you can do anything, just not everything. I think it's the act of prioritization focus, prioritization organization, delegation, which, by the way, if you are somebody who can do that, you are a leader. You are already has unlocked what it means to be a successful leader as well as a manager. And if not, it's like a muscle, right? It's a skill that you build by practice. Absolutely. That's a great answer. Thank you so much. Okay, so I have another question from Anna Marie. She asks, do you have an example of how you use these ideas in your career? Anna Marie, can you forget which slide it was? Was it the block? All right, so I didn't create the presentation before and then did my career journey. I actually did my career journey before and then realized and I'm really good at drawing parallels between different domains and it's the strength that I picked up once I moved countries. I always look for, oh, this looks very similar to this place, or this trend looks very similar to I've seen this before, so I use that superpower. When I was going through the different phases of my career, I wasn't thinking about product building a career, I was just going through those moments. However, when I become a product manager and once I started doing some of the digital transformation projects, I think that's when I really require it just became so obvious that it's so similar concepts, break it down, break the big problem down into smaller problem. Have small tangible pieces of success before you can actually solve the big problem. So I looked back and then mapped it to the journey, not created the presentation first and then look back. So if you're talking about those building blocks that I talked about so yes, I have taken every time I transition from one job role to a different job role, I have gone through educating myself, which is I have taken certification and training courses. I've always looked for stress assignments. I seek out mentors who could give me some sort of guidance on how to approach this. But not all of that was available at one place at the same time. When I needed it, I had to sometimes explore. That also led to the community that I or the nonprofit that I need. All of that and Women of Code is a great place for you to bring all of that together. So this is your opportunity for that exposure, for that networking and learning that I gathered through different experiences. Where do you find mentors? That's a really good question. It comes up a lot. So there are, if I talk about the a very structured way of finding mentors and yes, there are mentoring programs maybe in the communities that you're connected with or in the companies that you are working. And there may be some formalized mentoring programs that you need to go explore and sign up and become part of those. However, the most organic way of finding mentors is to look people around you that inspire you, build a connection, a relationship. It may not be just the first email I would like you to be my mentor. I think that's not how it works. Organic way of building a relationship with a mentor is somebody that inspire you, somebody that is in your circle, reach out to them, show and trust. And there is a mutual likeness on both sides. And at some point explicitly you can tell them that you would like them to be a mentor. But it doesn't always have to be very explicit. Initial conversation, you explore and you find mentors. So I have found mentors. Most of my mentors come from either to the communities that I am part of and the circles of the network. That's why you need to expand your network. If you don't have the people around you that you think they're either inspiring you to take the next step or they are helping in your growth, then expand the network. And there is some sort of lack in your exposure in finding those people. So I would again reemphasize. Women of Code is one of those communities that you can find those mentors through that exposure. Stretch assignment. Good reminder to work on that. Yes, volunteer work and stretch assignments. A lot of people may not it's somewhere. I've been a volunteer for almost 1520 years. As far as I remember, I've been volunteering since I was in college. And there has never been a moment or a year where I wasn't part of something because I always needed to do something, learn and expose. And I was curious to learn. It's so addictive, right? It is. Once you get into that, you find that not only it's just so addictive, it just gives you so much growth. Because usually people that are volunteering, there is not too much like hardcore processes around it. A lot of us are just learning, exploring and trying to solve problems. So you actually bring your best self as a problem solver, as somebody who can run operations really efficiently, collaborate with people through influence, without authority. There is like a best way to learn leadership and team skills is through volunteer. And I've done that a lot. So I always encourage people to do that. One question that comes a lot for me, you don't get paid for your volunteer work, so why do you do that? And my response to that always is I don't get paid for the exposure, the wealth of experience that I get from volunteer work. It's very hard to find a job or to other formalized activities. So my advice to you would be go for stretch assignments. Go for volunteer work without course, without making it a burden on your. On your workplace. Right. You don't have to overwork something that really flows with you will make it an enjoyable okay. There are actually a few questions earlier in the chat, but one that popped up just recently. So hema people need your email to connect with you on LinkedIn. I said they follow you, but I don't know how you curate your LinkedIn. Yes. So please follow me and I will send back the invite to you. So please go ahead and do that. My reply is always like, you know, it's hard being popular. Sure. Another question. This is Rama. I'm pronouncing ICEN early in chat. She says she wants to start her careers product data scientists without experience or like how to start the career without the experience or multi stakeholder interaction. And another one is from nevada like any tips on how to practically get feedback from colleagues, it might be overlap between them. If not, maybe they can drop in the chat to clarify. Right. Again, there is always a more formalized process of capturing feedback. I would however caution don't put yourself out there for feedback from any random person who may or may not matter to. If they needed to give you feedback, first ask why is this person's feedback important to me? Is it part of somebody that I'm working with? Somebody that is impacting my work or I have an impact on their work and how their feedback will actually help us improve the collaboration between us for the work that we are doing together. So random feedback can also be disguising, especially if you don't have that kind of connection or the relationship ongoing or they are not aware of what you're doing. So feedback you can always I use a format where I do ask feedback from my mentors, people that they know me through certain degrees and then asking them what do you think I'm really good at? What do you think I am really? Where I add value to the team and where do you think I need to improve in my terms what my brand looks like to them. So I do craft like three questions and asked them can you give me at least three of each? And that way it's more tangible feedback but also do not undermine the opportunity to have informal conversations and see what they are sharing with you and then do the same. The reason I caution against asking feedback from anyone because their feedback may or may not be relevant to you and it may just undermine your confidence and that's something to just watch out for. And the second question starting career how to start early career? If that was the question that you. Said, then it will need to wrap up because I think a minute over. But I can ask how to start my career with product data scientists without except experience or multi stakeholder interaction. This will be on my scope. So if I understand the question, this person is a data scientist and they want to become a different career, they want to pivot into a different job role. Is that the question? If that's your question, I can try to answer both very quickly. If you are pivoting from an existing role to a different role, look for these three things what kind of experience that I have, what kind of education that I have and what kind of exposure do I have that can fulfill transferable skill to that new role and see if you are lacking in any of those. It may just be an exposure stretch. Assignments and volunteer work can help you exposure education, training, certification can help with education and experience. Taking stress assignment again or taking an additional role responsibility can help. So if you're everything look for those three things and see what you can transfer to a new role. It can help you if you are starting. I think maybe that was not the focus of the conversation that I presented, so I hope there are more presentations throughout this that can help. But again, it's important to not just doing your school work and being really good at it, but also having a network of people. Once you're ready to tap into the job roles of industry, know that you have somebody or a network of people who can guide you where to land their formal programs of intake that different companies have. Look for those and also be present on LinkedIn. You know, a lot of people who are graduating these questions, they ask a lot. I haven't done anything. My profile is not like it's not significant that I post something on LinkedIn. How about you share what you are reading, if there's anything, or if you're passionate about writing, blogging, or if it's just an article about your field, data, science, product management, just sharing those being present on LinkedIn and not just everything that they learn from school, to me, it matters, right? If I'm choosing from two different early careers, somebody who has a profile of being active and they are part of multiple societies and they are presenting it to you, you may be part of it and you just think that it's not important. But be out there, share, be part of the conversation, and that make you stand out outside of your course, your education and network and how good you are at with your interview preparation and everything. So I hope that helps. This is amazing. Thank you so much. Shima and Petition is great. All the answer. I feel like I've learned a lot more about product management than I expected. She's like, Oh yeah, this is like clear cut. Everyone knows. They're like, no, you've taught me some new stuff about this. This is so great. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone. Enjoy next sessions and have a great day.