Presented by Women Who Code Mobile Speaker: Emin Grbo, Moderated by Poojita Garg Topic: How an Egg timer app got me every interview
What started as a simple idea in the terms of “let me make an app to be able to show for my junior position interview” continued to get me an interview after interview and never failed to put a spotlight on me when I really needed to. Even though I created the app for that very reason, I never expect it to work this good and for so long. In this talk, I will dissect specific components of the app and demonstrate WHY or works so well.
About the Speaker
Emin Grbo is a UX designer turned iOS engineer after deciding to switch careers and shift all his focus to development. For the last 3 years, he has been actively learning Swift and expanding his knowledge though various courses and books, working through materials from Mark Moeykens, Paul Hudson, Donny Wals and others, as well as developing few personal projects. He loves SwiftUI and is employed with TIDAL as a member of the core team, where he works on app maintenance, new feature development, testing and more.
You can find him online at: https://www.undeadpixel.dev or twitter: https://www.twitter.com/emin_ui
For our slack channel, previous event recordings, upcoming events, github repo and more check us out on https://beacons.ai/wwcodemobile
Eman. Yeah. So welcome to today's talk and it's very exciting talk about how an egg timer app got em in every interview. So I would like to introduce Evan Eman is a UX engineer turned iOS engineer. Ux designer turned iOS engineer after deciding to switch careers and shift all his focus to development. So for the last three years he has been actively learning Swift and expanding his knowledge through various courses and books, working through materials from Mark Morgan, Paul Hudson, Johnny Walls and others, as well as developing few personal projects. He loves Swift UI and is employed with Tidal. Tidal as a member of the core team where he works on app maintenance, new feature development, testing and more. So Eman is up to you. We would love to hear your awesome talk. Let me just stop sharing my screen. Just a second. Thank you. Yes. Let me just pick up share. Hello everyone and welcome. There we go. I don't think I have to move this here. Welcome to my first slash, second stock. And just in case something becomes weird with the audio or anything, anyone, just feel free to let me know. And we do have a six month old. She's actually exactly six months tomorrow. So if there's laughter and all that from time to time, just enjoy it. So thank you for that awesome intro here's. Just everything laid out in case you are interested in reaching out via Twitter or anything. I'm in Norway currently. I've been here for a year and a half for that. I was in Serbia. I was living at all my life mostly. But now I say like my second talk or first because just a week ago I did my first presentation. In a way it wasn't talk specifically, but it was still my first public speaking menu like that. So I'm still using into this and I try to be as clear and as professional as I can with this. But of course we'll see how it goes. Take it easy on me. So first about this thing, sorry, we have some technical difficulties and we're going to have to do like debugging like right away. It's like such a spoiler now, but there we go. It should have been like this. You can pretend you haven't seen that answer. So I'm surprised. So is it for real? Yes, this is really for real. This app really did get me jobs and interviews and everything like that. Specifically, two jobs. This is like my second full time employment, like full job as an as developer. But in that time I had six interviews and in all those interviews I got six offers. I got all the way to the end of the interview process and I got the offer. And the only reason I declined some of those offers was that it wasn't the right time or anything. But thankfully whenever I applied, this really did get me like a boost of sorts. And I didn't notice this until recently. I did make this app to do these things to push me a bit and to give me an extra edge over like other applicants, but only after a while. I figured how well it's performing and how good it has been to me. So I thought to share this and possibly people will pick up some of this and incorporate into their applying process or their CV or whatever. So hopefully it will help ours as well. So first, let's see that app. This is like just a video recording and I made and you can swipe left and right to decide which type of act you want to. And this scroll is connected to the animation using lot of animation. So that's like the main thing about it. We have some inappropriate and some tutorial just how to do it because it is a bit of a specific way the app is used and I will go into detail for each screen. I just want to give you an overall look like we got to be real. This still is just like time wrap. This isn't something. I don't want to oversell this, but I think it looks nice and it kind of catches your attention. It has nice colors and everything, but let's dissect it first and I will try to go through this call like talk about the app and how I did it via all that. Not to rush it, but I think you would get the most value from this when we get to the Q and A. And speaking of that, whenever you have a question during the talk, feel free to raise a hand or just type it in the chat and put it in. Sierra will just let me know we can stop whenever and wherever because I feel like you don't have to hold all your questions to the end. If we are talking about a certain screen and you're interested in something in regards to that screen, just let us know. We can stop. But we of course will have a full Q amp A at the end where you can ask anything related to the app or applying process, interviews, whatever, basically. So the first on the main screen is that scroll left or right. When I noticed when I saw all the by Airbnb and that's like an SPM or like Pod that you can use to import some premade SVG animations into your app. And it works really good and it's so easy to incorporate and everything. And in this example, I just made custom animation with this egg going from one state to the other. And then I connected that animation to my scroll to my collection view page collection view, basically. So I can go from one state to the other. And also when I Scroll through, it like you can see each step and it tied your swipe basically, color wise. I decided to go for vibrant purple background. And I think like this kind of like person, but depending on your preference, I like to go like really with almost weird colors, like very vibrant purple or pink or blue or not green as much as too strong, but something that catches attention. And that's fun because apps are meant to be fun. They don't have to be like very. I mean if it's like a banking app or anything, of course it needs to be very clean and professional. But having fun carry there, that's all what we do. And also the button. I use the Pneumorphic type of design, which was a bit like a Malte at a time and still is kind of like really interesting when you see it. And of course it has like a time on top and all those good things. The second screen, which is like a setting screen. This is where I added some in purchases. Now, I was quite aware that I'm not going to make a lot of money with this, like maybe like some friends for fun, like buying me like coffee and beer or whatever, unlock some icons. But this was primarily so I can practice in purchases and adding custom actors. So I thought about like if I got an assignment to do those things in a company and I need to research it and to test it like in a live project, that wouldn't be fun for me or my employer. This way I could test it out, see how I can pick up. Like, you can see that the price is like in Knock, that's Norwegian currency. But of course that's like if you're in the US going to pick up US dollars and everything and it's already done by the it's already done natively. But you can choose like what if you can hard code the value? I thought I would have to. But here I learned, for example, that I can just get that from the App Store connect while the app is running basically, and also added some animations there as well and using custom icons which you can switch back and forth. And the funny thing is like here, I think I didn't restore purchases here. I'm missing that. I can see that in the screen because you can see that I haven't bought my own icons. Eman. So we have our first question from Rabbati. He wants to ask that, did you use UIKit or Swift UI to develop this app? I use UIKit because this was two almost maybe three years ago. I'm not sure I forgot to see in the code like one was my first commit. But no, this is a fully UIKit app which I started to rewrite the Swift yard and I will just become so fun. But yeah, this is fully Uikid app and also that's great. Also Rhonda wants to ask that, do you have a background in graphic design? It's almost funny story. The school that I finished like the College when I went to, we have two years of design. The first two years were like general Informatics, like working with access with someone. We did do some Java I think, but it was like a very computer science based on College and the two second years were focused on after effects, Illustrator, design in general. So I do have some experience there. But the funny thing is that I started working as a designer when I started attending those later two years. So I was basically learning everything while I was working as a designer basically. So I did have like always interest towards the design and creative things and all that. So my main education there was basically just on the job and from a couple of awesome colleagues that I had. But usually I picked all this up same way that I did. Like I was development by learning from others and reading and practicing because in design everything is about practice. So not sure if that answers the question. I went a bit broad so yeah, I do, but at the same time I didn't have to. I learnt it on the job basically. That's awesome. Cool. Okay, let's continue and take all the questions, keep them coming. So the third screen is keep skipping. Okay, there we go. Tutorial screen. I almost didn't want to put this in in the app itself but the way this timer works is very specific and I did do some research. This is not like just an egg timer app. I did do some research and I found some links on what is the best way to make eggs and the most risk free basically. So as you can see, like you put your eggs in water and they boil and then after that you turn on the timer. So I had to put this here but also like an opportunity to add some more animations and to add attribution button at the very bottom to attribute all the artists who did like animations and sounds and everything. Also interesting thing to note like these pumorphic buttons, when you tap them, they do have a haptic connected to them and they animate as you saw I think in the previous. So it really has like a rubbery effect and also the sound is like a rubbery plot kind of effect. So really very interesting to use this app and this animation was made for me by my grandfather friend so it was really fun to do then. The attribution screen was just a way for me to show basically attribute only artists that the animations which I picked up from audio files and some sounds from I think in Battle which I paid for of course, but I just thought it would be good to link to those as well. And all these animations that you see now are inside notifications. So when the eggs are done you get a notification and the sound and this notification shows up when you open the app and it has like a funny side message like bears don't eat eggs, but here you go. Or this elephant is coming to get your eggs, hurry up or the cheese one or something. Like, I'm not sure your eyes are done or I don't know, I just had fun with it. Basically fun with notifications. So why don't why would you create like an app that is not too advanced or that doesn't seem to showcase your ability or anything? And first, I cannot stress how important it is when you apply, especially as a junior developer, to have the app on the store. Several times when I talk to some of my colleagues, some were very certain that you don't need to have an app or anything, and you don't have to. But it does help for a potential employer to see that you want to hold through the process of posting the app on the store and maybe having your app rejected a couple of times or whatever. But going through that process, they would feel more confident that you can maintain their app as well. Proof of the minimum work that you can do. Because especially if you don't have any experience, if you don't have any references towards your IoT development experience or anything, if they see this and they see notifications in the purchases timers, whatever they're like, okay, this person made this, they could have picked up some of that stuff up from stack overflow, which is fine, of course. But again, you made it. This is yours. And they do know that you will at least be able to do some things in their app if they are uncertain. Basically, yes, I did already mentioned that. But this is for inapp purchases as well, which is anyone who has done in a purchase knows how tricky this can be, and any employer who can see that you have enough purchases in your app will be very interested in how you did it. Number one, because doing it manually, it's not too tricky, but it's finicky. So it can be kind of like, I don't want to say buggy, but it's not too fun to do. And that's why revenue Cats, which is they're not sponsoring anything but that service that I would gladly use for anything going forward. Working on any app trial version of you, in the sense that when you got the app and you don't have to pay for it, but you can see what it does, it makes them more like at ease and sure of what your capabilities are and whether to hire you or not. Interesting thing, this can be like a very good ice breaker if you're nervous. And you will be. I'm still aware of how many interviews and I haven't had too many interviews, so I'm still going through that like a bit of a nervous process and everything. But when you have something that you made and that you're sure you know how it works and everything. It gets really easy to talk about that and maybe they will ask you how to get it or whatever. Or one time it happened when I was talking on the interior was like, this app does work. I tried it and the ad wasn't runny at all. And we started talking about it was like, how do you make it? And it turns out he didn't follow the tutorial. So me and his colleague were just laughing. And it becomes really like a more friendly atmosphere because you just joke around and share some thoughts and whatnot and also buying time in the sense that when you go to an interview, the longer you're there, the better. So unless you're doing like a live coding challenge or anything of that sort. But the more you talk to these people and the more they ask you and you go back and forth and everything, you are becoming more and more memorable and you're talking about more things and you connect more and everything. So the longer you can spend in that call or in that office or whatever, it'll all go in your favor and they will definitely remember you for that job or the next one or anything. So it's like very good. They can at least remember like, oh, that guy that has an act time rap or similar. Emily. So we have another question. A couple of people are asking that if this app is on App Store, then can you leave a link to it? All right, yeah, I forgot to do that. Let me see. What is the quickest what is the quickest way I can do that right now. We can also do that at the end of the talk, if you like this actually shared it. I just shared it with everyone as well. You have fans in the audience with the link already. Okay. Nice. And there's another one. There's another question in that's regarding that. Do you have experience, like, did you have experience in lot of animations before and any recommendations on how to start incorporating them into the. Yeah. Before this, while I was working on the app, I didn't even know about a Lotta. But then when I saw it, I just incorporated in the app and I didn't have experience with it at all or I didn't have experience, like too much of anything, honestly. I mean, this app, I'm not sure if it's even on GitHub because I wasn't as good. I wasn't posting much stuff on GitHub back then and everything. And the code base is not too clean at all. But I think if I find that code, I can gladly share it just so you can see how new I was. So it's a bunch of not good coding practices. So it's not good to see and to learn from it. But I was definitely new and I was just feeling in the dark and the lot of animations were very easy to add. It's literally like you add the pod or no SPM, which is the preferred way to do it for sure. You just import it and just call the. Json file, which you already dropped in your project. So I'm not sure if it can be easier working with Storyboards. It was a bit tricky where you had to set up the class for that view, but especially with Swift UI, there is, I don't want to say a tricky way to do it. But in any case, whether you're adding to your kit or Swift UI, it's very easy to add. And if you need help with that, feel free to reach out on Twitter or anything. And I will help you out because for CGI, I'm not sure if they have like an official way to do it, but I did add it while I was remaking this and that happens in development, but I can just share that extension and help you out. Awesome. Also, there's a question from Theo that how much marketing did you do for running Egg, Twitter, et cetera? And how did employers find you? Oh, I didn't do any marketing. This app is mostly like an addition or attachment to my whenever I sent the CV. So I never got an interview by employers, like seeing it and then just looking for the device and then contact me or anything. Because at the end of the day, this app is like something too special. But when you put it next to your CD and they have something to remember, you buy and it looks a bit more rememberable and kind of like with vibrant colors, it's a bit different. They just remember you more easily and they just ask you to come on for a talk or anything just because you are different than the other. So if 20 people send CV, they have like pictures or don't they have this, they don't or whatever. But when you have the app, which looks a bit out there, they note that. And that's the thing with this app will hopefully help you. I mean, apps such as this. And that's great. So Matt is saying that first of all, great portfolio piece. And how did you add this on your CV? Did you show screenshots or give them an app store link? What's the best practice to do that? Yeah, that is a very good question. And I was going to mention that in the end because I forgot to put that in the presentation because some people might say that interviewers won't download the app because they are going through the CVS all day, they don't have time to search it or if they're looking at the app on their Mac and they don't use Universal clipboard and they can't copy paste the phone or whatever. So the way that I sold that is I have like an icon in my CV which has a link to the app store, but it also has a link to the video, the same video that I showed you on the one of the initial pages. So my thinking with that is even if you have more apps and I would never send more than three. Like three is the maximum number of apps that you should send. If you have more, but always provide a link with the video run down because that way they will just look at it and if they see something they like, they're like, okay, I'm going to download it and check this out myself. But with the video you can pinpoint specific parts of the app. They're really interesting. Like again in that video I just swiped left and right and then I swipe slowly so you can see how scroll of the animation and everything. So it kind of gives them the idea how the app works. And also I'm not sure I mentioned in this presentation or I will mention is the use of Rotato app which would help to record a video with it. That way you will have that good preview of the phone and you can even rotate it or whatever make it even more interesting. And actually in the end I will show you also animation I did for the recent type that I did unsafe. That's the app that I was talking about during iOS happy hour, which has a bit more advanced animation, but you can see where you can get with all those animations. And I'm sure Chris, who has my back will even have a link ready. And I'm sure he posted the link for the previous app as well because he's like my Guardian crease. I forgot what the question is. I went a bit more overboard. But did they answer it? Yeah, you absolutely answered it. That was a great answer. Also, one other attendee is asking that what if I have an app that's on GitHub and not in that store yet? So could I still get employers interested? And is it okay to have an app you are still working on in your resume? Yes, definitely. That's why you can post the video. So if it's something GitHub, that's even better because it depends if you want to share the code, if you're comfortable with it, if you're really trying to use a good architecture to make the code as clean as you can and everything, do share the code as well. Share screenshots and video for me, when I review some applicants in any of my jobs, it's very time saving to just have like open video, see it, and see if you should investigate further. If you see the app that you like it, it works well, it looks good. Then I will download the app or look at it on GitHub or anything. So it's quite okay to even share something that's not an app store, that's not live because I mean, you might be working on something that's not yet ready, or maybe it's something that App Store doesn't approve and you feel that it's like a good piece of code that you can share and it will have the same value. You won't lose any points there. Basically, that's great piece of advice. So I hope that this answered the questions Matt and Cam had. So please let us know if you have any further questions in the chat. Cool. Let's carry on. Next one. Yes. When you present the app, you have two choices. You can say like, oh, hey, I have an egg timer app and here it is. And leave the rest of them. And this is not lying per se, but you have to know how to sell the app itself. So if you say that you have an app that you've seen a purchase load animation, sound, background timers, custom haptics, local notifications, custom font, alternative icons, remote JSON patch if you want to put that in. So list goes on and on. And you don't have to go too much into detail to just make as much points as you can. But as you can see, like all these points, this is all except the remote adjacent patch. I just added that in because at the time I didn't know that. But working with API is 98% of the things that you will be asked about for any job interview, for any position. So if you have that in your app and you can use it for text, for the tutorial, you can use it for fetch, remote animations or whatever. But if you have remote JSON or just working with any API, like using or whatever, if you have that in the app, you will benefit greatly. But again, dissecting the app like this makes it like they don't focus on the egg timer, which is like a very basic app to have like a to do list, which also is in a sense a basic app because we all made like a bunch of those when we were practicing. But then to do list apps can go really deep into complexity. So it doesn't have to be simple. So if you put it like this, they can look at it and like, okay, purchases, check load information and check sound. You have experience with all these things and that's this list. Here the reason why when I was first making the app, I wanted to practice all these things, to practice them safely, working on my own app and to be able to make mistakes and to have ugly code or whatever. So one of the time comes when I have to do this in my day job, I will have more experience with it and I will know what to look out for. And I will know like for example, how to put the custom phones are rarely used for my experience at least. But I did it once here and I can still remember how you do it and how you put it. Like if you list and your documents folder which is like something that you would you would Google it of course. But still it helps to have that initial knowledge basically and also during TV which was very fun to do and I'm not sure if I added the ability to like just long press on the app I can have that. Not sure what that menu is called like menu something I don't know. But I'm definitely thinking like all the things that I could add on to this app now and make it like a proper beast of an app that I can still apply with. And after all these years I would still send this app with my CV because when you see that background you remember that. So I will never stop sending this when I start selling it for like a senior role or whatever in the future of course. So ready, set stress when you go into the interview, if you go hopefully the app that you made using these approaches help you get into the interview room or the call. One way to help you ease that stress because there will be stress and it's quite normal to have it is to prepare answers to some possible questions because if they really like the app and if that is not the main reason, but if that's something that influenced their decision to call you and they will have some questions like oh how did you do this? Or how did that like the same that you asked me now if I use UIKit or CPI, if I found working with Lodi or not, they will have some of those questions and you cannot prepare answers for them. But prepare yourself for some of these answers because if you did something here and you cannot remember how you did it at all, it wouldn't be too bad. But just go over the basics and make sure that you have an approximate answer for all these. And for example here they might ask me and these are some of the questions that I have made back then. So how did I solve like the scroll? How did I connect it to the animation for example, or restore purchases? This is something that I added when I was making the presentation but why didn't you add restore purchases for example? Or how do you add them or was it easy to add them or what are they used for? So there's so many questions which can be connected to this because I mentioned working with the timer in the background. Or they might ask you if I start the timer and minimize the app and open it like five minutes later, what will the timer say? And if you haven't done any work with timers, you wouldn't know that when you minimize the app, the timer stops. The app cannot work in the background unless it has some capabilities. And in my case, literally when the app is about to go in the background, I saved the exact time. And when you opened the app back again, I noticed a time when you opened it and then just manually deducted the time that was lapsed in that period. But again, this would be a very interesting question and a very interesting topic to talk about, especially if you're interviewing for a junior position and you have this question that will pop up. I'm sure they would be not impressed, but they will note you and they will at least be happy about that. You know how that works and that you sold it and the way that you sold it, because there's no wrong ways to do this. This is like one example where those questions are really good and I was working with Lottie and someone already asked this. So that's like the reason why I have these questions or did you earn anything from me? This is also like an ice breaker thing. And I think in three years, not three, but maybe two and a half years that this has been out there. Maybe I earned like $25 or something and I earned 90% of that like the launch day because that's when my friends bought it and everything still from time to time, people like to use that in purchases for fun and all that. But of course that's not the purpose of the app, but it's still there and the list goes on. You don't have to go too much into the detail, but just make sure that you cover all the main aspects of your app or just to have something to talk about there, or just expense on that time that you can spend inside the interview room for the end. Like you have to be real. This is a simple app. If you create a simple app, that is the idea to make a simple but really good looking app, really flashy app with fireworks and all that, you have to be real. The way you present it, that it's not too impressive. It's not like you are not the best junior developer they can hire or anything, so you cannot present it to downplay it, but you cannot upsell it too much as well. You can just show them the app, like give them a preview or video or whatever, and let them do the conclusions, like whether you talk too much about all those bullet points like what the app has or if it's pretty or not or whatever. So just be careful not to talk too much about the app. And if they don't notice it and maybe the app is on the reason that they called you, you don't have to mention it. If you expect to go into that interview and talk about the app for like 80% of the time and you don't mention it, you could be in a disadvantage because you're thinking that it will be like the top of the town, but it's not what happened to me. And sometimes they just mentioned, oh, I said I install it like with timer. But let me ask you about that. So they literally just noted that and that switched to the other topics that I had and I was quite fine with that by that time I was used to it. So just be real. That's the main message here. And we have come to the QA section. If there are more questions, of course. But feel free to ask me about anything and anything in regards to this or iOS development or whatever you have. And of course you can always reach me on Twitter as well if you have any questions design wise, code wise or anything. And that's it. Thank you so much, Emily. It was an awesome talk and the app is so good looking and really all the animations and all the UI aspects. So it's just very nice. Thank you. Someone in the attendees was asking about that. Gesture Recognizes. So you mentioned it on one of your slides. If you can get a brief intro about it was a good question. Is it using tab directors or the way that I incorporated it? Or maybe it was in regards to the animation, I guess. Yeah, just a few slides before. So it's just a general question, I guess. So you can just talk a bit about what it is, what it is used for. And in the meantime, if he has asked us so if he has some other questions regarding it and please feel free to comment in the chat I see just to recognize the person. So it was possibly when I was talking about the animation of how I control the animation while I'm scrolling. And in that specific case I didn't use add any custom tabjector recognizer or anything. I just think it's the scroll with the animation progression because Lotty animations, they literally have like they can be playable and loop able and everything. But you can literally just move the slider like when you pause the movie and you move the slider back and forth or when you're working with the animation in After Effects for example, you can literally go frame by frame back and forth. So this way I just connected those frames to the scroll view which is behind all that. And that way the scroll view position was connected to the initial progression. And I just need to again because this was done a while back. Now today I would use it with the collection view but I think back then that I even did like with the scroll view and then just connected the position so I don't remember adding or knowing about them. Gesture Recognizes okay, that's great. I hope that answers the question. Also one of the Tendi is asking that in your CV you had some other projects or just this one. At first it was just this one especially for my first job where I didn't even put it in the CV. But while I was talking with the interviewer, they asked me did you make an app so far? And I was like, oh yeah, like I have it here. And I showed it on the phone and I remember a couple of months after, while I was already working there that he mentioned that app was the sole reason why I got hired. I mean, he was joking a bit because we're like friends like that. But he definitely was like, yeah, when I saw that app, I was like, okay, this guy has to come and work for us. And I wasn't expecting that good of a reaction back then. So that was really my point. But yeah, I do have other apps that I send and I just note if I work on that app like Inside the Team or for an employer, especially if it's for an employer, you can always show the app and mention it and you can just say, okay, I did like this part of the app because an employer would realize that you haven't done like for example, not working Title. And I would never say like oh yeah, title app. But I'm just maintaining some parts of it. So it always helps. If the app is solely yours, it definitely helps and I would put those apps first. So if you have like some of the that you have worked on first, present your apps because the apps that you are working on for your employer, it's a given that you work on those apps so you don't have to really present them as much. Awesome. Also, Raghu Kati is asking that if someone is planning to transition the career to iOS development in an EO, would you recommend learning Swift UI or UI Kit or both? Yes, that is a really interesting question and I'm not sure anyone has 100% an answer to that. For me, if I wasn't in a rush, I would absolutely learn like swiftly. I would have to learn it and it will definitely help and it really depends on the company and the jobs where you would apply. And if it was me, if I didn't know anything about programming or development, iOS or any other development, I would always go for the latest first because that is something that will become the main focus for any jobs that you apply for. But currently it's more of maybe 80 20 splits in the favor of UI kit because if you don't know you a kit and break the number of apps based on your kit or even Objective C, you will be put on Navy Pile or something like that. So I would suggest for this great question, learn Swift UI and combine that will help you greatly. But for UI kit you do have to cover a good part of it. Like at least working with JSON and you don't have the storyboards. Anything storyboard. Just go around that because by now people have already forgotten about it. So you will have to learn both. But I've seen some jobs which are like oh, Swift UI. It's okay to only know Swift UI or like we are working on an app that will be SwiftUI only. So it doesn't have to be. It depends how sure you have to be like to get that job. But I would prefer Swift Drive. So fun to work with. But yeah, I hope that kind of answers the question. But I can give you definite answer there. It depends where you are. That's a great recommendation. So Ken is asking that what do you suggest for saving or storing data for simple table view app so that if the user loses his or her phone, they can always retrieve their data? That's an interesting question because when you mentioned that last thing, like if they lose their phone, how can they retrieve it? That is the part when some people might not stumble. But when you can make a mistake, if it's a very simple app and you save everything in user default, that is saved in that specific app that you have installed on that phone. So when the app is listed, that data is listed. So when the phone is lost, of course. So that won't help you at all. So when you work with any data, I would suggest to try and learn to work with core data because for some simple things you would need like a couple of days just to get into it and just go over a couple of tutorials. And Cordiate is so much simpler than it was before. Before it was remembered as the big bad data management thing. I remember my first tutorial, when I went through it, it was like I was so confused. But then I learned about Realm and then I was like oh my God, this is way too simple. Like why did I see that first tutorial at all? But now I would just go straight with Cordata and make some simple objects that I can use because that way. But again, if you lose the phone, then you would have to also upload it and use the cloud. So you have to use Cloud Kit as well. So if you really have to make sure that the data is never lost and you have to use Cloud Kit, that's when things get a bit more tricky. But I would use that core data and clock in for that specific question to really make sure that data is saved and it will never be lost unless user wants to delete it, of course. Okay, that's great. So we have another question. How simple or complex do you think a first step should be? For someone with a few years of iOS development already. There aren't really some limitations per se. As I mentioned, for example, I would still use this app And I would show this up to anyone Because I still like it and I'm proud of it and I always have a lot of good things to say about it. And initially my idea was like let me overengineer something really simple Because it's almost funny. It's almost like, oh, look at this guy. Like he has like an IP rap which uses animations which has this has that like a bit almost like it has too many too much. But I would never go like too complex with a lot of screens or login. Like if you want to present an app which someone needs to download and test it out, do not have an app that requires a login or that you do some extra stuff, just make it as fast as possible for them to check it out. So go the simpler route Because you can focus on the graphics and have one or two three screens Just to be able to really Polish those few screens as much as you can. Like, I mentioned that tutorial screen. I wouldn't have even put it there if the way the EXO prepared wasn't so specific Because I really wanted just to have like really you can see this background like this Orange with this purple works so well and if you have only that it really makes an impression on you. So that is the main idea behind this app that will hopefully get you some interviews and stuff like that. That's a great piece of advice. I think that's very useful. So I think we are out of all the questions, incredibly answered, all of them. That's really nice suggestions and piece of advice. I hope all the attendees enjoyed it and learned a lot from your talk today. Awesome. Same here. And I just want to say that this was really fun and this was like my second but my first real and a bit more serious on a longer talk. I think I'm going to keep doing this in the future Because it's so fun And I really want to share and especially for junior devs and interviews and everything and I have so much knowledge and experience to share there that I want to just help more people get on that Because it's not that people make mistakes, but they are focused on wrong things when they apply for the job So they only focus like on the different things they might like, hopefully have like greater success ratio here. Yeah, that's my question.