Video details

Journey from an Apprenticeship to a Fulltimer @ Airbnb

Career
05.30.2022
English

Presented by Women Who Code San Francisco Speaker: Marissa Aguilar
Marissa Aguilar graduated college with a degree in Business, moved back to the Bay Area, and spent two years in technical recruitment. She is currently an Associate Software Engineer @ Airbnb after being converted from a Software Engineer Apprentice. She started her career transition at Hackbright Academy, a coding bootcamp in SF LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marissa-aguilera/
___ 💻 WWCode Digital Events: https://www.womenwhocode.com/events 🔎 Job Board: https://www.womenwhocode.com/jobs​​​​ 💌 Make a Donation: https://www.womenwhocode.com/donate

Transcript

Marissa actually was a technical sorcerer for me when we spent some time together at our past company, Motive, when we keep tracking. And after we both left, she's obviously gone on to become a software engineer. So ask her to join us today to talk about her experience both at Hackbright and her journey from apprenticeship to full time at Airbnb. So if questions pop up, please don't hesitate to kind of, like, use your razor hand feature or drop some questions in the chat. It could be related to what my experience has been coaching engineers into apprenticeships or internships, or it could be specifically to Marissa's experience and kind of first hand what she could share with us. Yeah, I'll let Marissa make a quick introduction, and we'll go from there. Yeah. So I guess to continue what page is saying, I'm Marissa, and currently I'm an associate engineer at Airbnb. I'm just going to kind of go through my introduction and my journey into how I got into my current role. So I started my transition into engineering. I would say it was, like, towards the beginning of 2020. Like Paige mentioned, I was a technical sorcerer, and I would talk to engineers every day on the phone, trying to recruit them towards our company and also working with engineers internally. And I think over time, I just ultimately became so interested in the work they were doing and wanted to learn more. So I started doing some self study. I know we had worked with a networking event with Hackbright before, so I was familiar with the boot camp, and so I decided to take a look more into their boot camp and notice that they had an introduction to Python course. So I did that just as, like, an intro to see if I liked it, and I ended up loving it, and things just kind of, like, worked out the way they did. Ended up getting laid off from my former job, and it just kind of fell into this opportunity of my fork in the road. So I want to continue with recruiting or did I want to pursue engineering, which I kind of started studying and really love, so I decided to go for it. And this was around July 2020, so I did the three month boot camp and finished that in September 2020. And then I was in my job search for about seven months. Then I started my apprenticeship at Airbnb in May, so about exactly a year ago, and that was six months. Finished that up in November and then converted in December to a full time employee at Airbnb. So, yeah, that's just a little bit, like, very quick intro about my journey into software engineering, and I'm definitely happy to answer any questions that you guys have about anything along the way job search, hackbright itself, or how I kind of fix up my resume. Any questions you guys have? Yes, I'd like to maybe start with what the experience was like the first three months and kind of going into Hack, right. The technical staffs that you learned and how that has kind of helped put you onto the path of finding the apprenticeship. For me. And I know this experience is very different for everybody. I think I've always heard about this term Imposter Syndrome, and I just never really thought I was like, oh, that won't happen to me, I'll be fine. And then going into my boot camp, I definitely felt it. I felt like I found myself comparing myself a lot to other people in the boot camp. And I think one thing that I had to remember and just remind myself of that other people come from different experiences. So some people entered my boot camp with previous certificates or just other knowledge about engineering. So that was one thing that I experienced during my boot camp with just a little bit of Imposter Syndrome. But as for the tech stack, my specific tech stack at Hackbright was more full stack. So we learned a lot about Python, JavaScript, React, Jquery, and we use all of these technologies and libraries that they taught us to build our main project. So we spent about a month and a half building our main project and I think ultimately it did help me in terms of the job search and to where I am now in my current role. But there's just like so many other technologies that other companies now use. So currently I use Java and I do use React a lot. So I think that was also very helpful to learn. But I will say that in my job search, I did a lot of self study myself. So I think Hackbright did a great job at giving me exposure and teaching me a little bit about or as much as they could during that time about these libraries and frameworks and languages. But I did a lot of more legwork after when I was in my job search to really solidify areas that I felt like I was just confused about. How would you say the project that you did at Hackbright kind of like, helped secure the job? Right? So one question that I've heard from engineers is who have transitioned or come out of boot camps? Is that like, can just putting your projects on a resume be enough to get you a job? And how would you say that project helped kind of transition you over? How are you able to tell the story of what you built and why you built it and how important is that? Yeah, like I said, we spent like a month and a half on that project and so we really did a lot of learning along the way into each step of it, and how to work on a database or how to work more back end and how to do the front end piece and how to put it all together. And I would say it helped a lot because I was trying in my job search so many ways to figure out how to spice up my resume. And I think just going through that process of going through this project and building this project, I was able to then take all that learning and build another project. So I decided in my job search to build a portfolio, and I kind of went along the same steps and guidance that I did when I was doing my main project. So I think that helped a lot towards me, like, going through the process again and just building a portfolio for myself. Also, as I mentioned, I was, like, in an Introduction to Python course, and in that Intro to Python course, we did, like, another project just in one month. Very basic project. We had to build a game, and it was just kind of up to everybody what you wanted to build. So, for me, I built Connect Four, and I added that to my resume. Any project I ever did in my journey going into software engineering, I made sure I added that no matter how small it was or how big it was or the amount of time I spent on it, I would just still add that onto my resume. Yeah, I want to address a couple of the questions in the chat really quick. So, first one, and I think this can go for both myself and Marissa, because Marissa might have insight into housing are done at Airbnb, but what is the difference between apprentice and internship? So, for me as a recruiter, generally, internships are for people who are coming out of CS degrees or are somewhere between sophomore and junior year looking for an internship. So those are generally winter, summer cohorts, and those are generally three months. Apprenticeships oftentimes are for people who are transitioning from a different industry into software engineering, product design, data, things like that. And specifically, if you're not coming out of a CS degree, and those often times can be somewhere between three to six months. I know that the one that you did, Marissa, is six months at Airbnb, correct? Yeah, it was six months at Airbnb. Okay. And is that sort of similar kind of narrative internally at Airbnb that internships maybe are for kind of CS degree or, like, current students versus maybe self learning, self taught boot camp? Yeah, I would definitely agree with you there. For example, Airbnb's apprenticeship is very new, so my cohort was only the second year that they've done it. Currently, they're on their third year, and each year they take in ten apprentices, and all ten. They have a very I would say, like, a very strict qualification of you have to be either self taught or a bootcamp graduate. So they don't even really look at or consider much like people from a CS degree background. Not that they won't consider you at all for Airbnb, but they would recommend applying to internships instead of the apprenticeship, just because that's geared specifically for people with more of, like an untraditional background getting into tech. And there's a couple of questions too around, like how do you prepare yourself after boot camp? I know that you mentioned you had done some learning prior to the boot camp, and then you did a lot of self learning leading up into these interviews. What was that process? Yeah, so I would say how to prepare myself. You said how to prepare myself for the boot camp, right? Yeah. I think ultimately, like, my boot camp, they gave us a lot of pre work or prep work to look at. So I did that. I just really dove into a lot of their prep work. Also, I think it's very common for people that are very junior in their software engineering career to reach out to people on LinkedIn that are maybe more senior in their career. So, for example, now I get a lot of people that reach out to me that are going through boot camp, and I want to know more about my journey or that are interested in apprenticeship. So I think that's something that I used as well, that I reached out to women that went to hack. Right. And I wanted to know from someone that graduated Hackwrite, what would you suggest is a good way for me to prepare or what do you think I should focus on with my background? You know, I don't have a whole lot of technical background, so, like, do you think I should study more in this area or do this? So that was another thing. On top of that, and I'm sure all of you have probably heard this before, but leak code being like, so junior and not even knowing much about software engineering before my boot camp, I was really intimidated by the code, so I didn't really attempt the problem, but I did get familiar with the platform and just kind of take a look at that. And I was also, like, on code wards, and I would do some of those problems on there just to start getting familiar with it, just seeing if I could attempt it. But I think ultimately it wasn't really for me, at least until after my boot camp, I started really leaning in on those sites, definitely during those interviews. What was the process like for apprentice? Right. And what was maybe any prep materials or context that they were giving you? Were these largely, like, algorithm based, or were some of them really reflective of the day to day work that you could potentially be doing? Yeah, so I would say it's a lot more like algorithm based. I can literally speak to Airbnb's interview process. Their interview process is very quick. So, for example, I applied and the application itself is submitting like a technical piece of work so I had like a replica file that I just had part of my project and commented out. I just explained basically what I was doing. And then also I believe it's like three essays. So that's like the application itself. And then in a week I got an email from a recruiter to set up a call. It was a 30 minutes call and she was just very much like an introduction call, just breaking down what the apprenticeship will be like, asking me a few interview questions and then what to expect next, and then the next step after that. They do this thing which is a batch hiring day. So they had three batch hiring days wednesday, Thursday, Friday, where they have a few engineering teams that are just dedicating some parts of their day just to doing interviews because they want to kind of narrow down the apprentices within those three days. So I had my interview on a Friday and it was about an hour and a half or hour and 15. The first 45 minutes is technical and we went through basically as many problems. It's not really like limited. It's like if you can get through two, then you're going to get through two. If you can get through five, you're going to five. So it's just kind of like based on the type of problem or complexity, I guess. But I felt like, for example, I was really working on leak code easy problems and I felt like that was like a good measure for the type of questions I got in the interview. So that was the first 45 minutes and then the next 30 minutes was more behavioral. And then I would say a week after that I got the offer from Airbnb. Great. You're recommending maybe practicing on the code? What were some of the other resources that you had mentioned? Yeah, so I would recommend practicing on lead code. Like I mentioned, I attended a few of these women who code hack night events and I think that was very helpful for me. For example, I felt like I struggled a lot with Linked lists or things like that, just like certain algorithms and certain concepts. I just didn't really get it. So I would specifically attend those hack night events just to work on those problems. I also would meet regularly with my boot camp, like the cohort from my boot camp. We would meet maybe every two weeks just to go over certain problems. Like we would assign ourselves problems and need to go over those. So between women who code and my boot camp, like class, I was working basically working on a problem every week just to kind of meet and discuss it and figure out why I was confused or why they were confused and try to help that way. Another thing I did was there's a lot of sites like I know you to me is one or educated. I did specifically want a certificate on Educated. It was called like, let me see. I think I have it on my LinkedIn, but it was like Python or data algorithms in Python for interviewing. It was specifically for interviewing. And this certificate was self paced and took me maybe about two or three days to complete. But I did feel like that helped me a lot with interviews because as I was going through these interviews or virtual onsite interviews, I was getting a lot of feedback that culturally you're a good fit, but we need you to be technically stronger. So I knew that was the area I wanted to focus on. So I really was trying to improve those skills and decided to do that certificate. And was that feedback given or was that something that you were asking for from your recruiter? Yeah, I think it was like both scenarios. I've had some scenarios where it was given to me and then other scenarios where it was kind of like pulling teeth a little bit and I had. To ask, yeah, definitely kind of going back to the interview process, how much weight do you think kind of sits on the technical and which portions of it do you think it comes down to communicating early, like the solution that you're going to go about when you're doing those technical rounds, do you think it's about kind of the data structures, the code quality, the speed of the code? What do you think that is? Yeah, I would say also I'm just adding the certificate I just did in the chat on Educated. But I would say it's like a mix of things. But the number one feedback that I got from my boot camp specifically is just to basically make sure you're always talking. And these technical interviews, they're awkward. I think it's just kind of inevitable. It's going to be awkward, but I just made sure no matter what, I'm going to talk and I'm going to tell this engineer what I'm thinking the entire time. So whether it's like, oh, for this part, I think it might be a good idea to create a hash map. And then for this I might do like a for loop. Every step along the way, I felt like I was always talking, and I think that's something that's really important in an interview. And then also I've had situations where I've had interviews that I knew maybe in the first 20 minutes that I didn't really know the problem, I didn't not know how to solve it. And that's like a really awkward situation I feel like to be in. So I kind of use that opportunity as more of like, just to learn. And so I tried to get through as much as I could by myself, but then ultimately I would ask the interviewer or ask them for help, but in the most part, they're very, like, willing. I've had interviewers that were really willing to help me understand the problem. Yeah, definitely. I've heard from a couple of the engineers that I've worked with in the past, like there's absolutely nothing wrong asking for help. There is a matter of and this is just for context for everybody, there are some scoring rubrics that sometimes we'll have to dock points for however much help is kind of given or pointed in that direction. So don't want to use that as a way to discourage you. But also just kind of letting you know that some companies I know, like Microsoft will use kind of like that sort of leveling internally. What I'm hearing from the engineers that I work with is communication is key, right? Like when you go into these technical interviews, they might be kind of like pairing with you or they're essentially kind of just watching. And for the most part I would always suggest kind of repeating back what the problem is and the solution you think that you're going to take and then going ahead and approaching that solution. And if you feel like you're going to change that solution along the way, maybe just maybe describing why you've decided to change because maybe something hasn't worked. Did you kind of test often and early in your code as well? Is that something that you think Airbnb was kind of calibrating on as well when you were doing any of these coding paths? Yeah. So I think for me, I definitely agree. That was probably the first thing I did was just repeat the question and make sure I understood repeat the problem and make sure I understood every little bit and tackled every single edge case. Okay, let's say a problem that has an array and what if this array is empty? Or what if this array has one number? Or what if this array has 20 numbers? Like figuring out every edge case, asking questions early on. And then I think ultimately, as far as the testing, I would kind of go through the problem line by line and just make sure as I'm going through talking through each line, but also concentrating and focusing on what's going on in my mind, do I think that this line is correct or do I maybe like talking about if I feel like, oh, I could probably do this or I could do that. I think that also helps as well. In terms of testing, I think I kind of thought about it like line for line and thinking about do I go this route or do I go this route? And just being open with my interviewer and just transparent about kind of what the thoughts that are going in my head. That's good to hear. Wanting to pivot a little bit and talking about kind of the transition from hackbright and over into the job search. So obviously you landed the apprenticeship and have now been converted full time. And I want to talk a little bit about what that process to convert generally looks like. But I'm also curious as to how did you find the apprenticeship was, what was the support system like from Hackbright and the alumni? And also, did you interview at other places, other apprenticeships, other internships? Or even if you found kind of like junior or associate level roles out there, where can people find those? Yeah, so I guess I want to start just by saying, like, the job search experience will be very different for everybody. For example, my graduating class at Hackbright, I believe it's like 26 women, and there were people in my graduating class that got a job within the first two months and there were people all along the way that got a job not until a year later. So it could be very different for everybody. But my experience, I got my job in seven months and it was difficult. I would say that just to be completely honest. I feel like the job search was very difficult, but I feel like as long as you just don't give up and continue pushing and if it's really something you want, it will happen eventually you will find a job. I know someone in my job search or in my class that they got a job or they were offered a job and they weren't necessarily happy with it, so they decided to wait, which could be considered really risky, but they ultimately got the job they wanted. So I just wanted to start with saying that. But how I got my apprenticeship, I kind of had this strategy of just at first it was just like not supplying, which I think in some sense could help me get traction and help with practicing interviews. But ultimately I feel like especially for certain roles that require essays like Airbnb, really spending a lot of time and being thoughtful about those essay questions would really help me as well. But the way that I found Airbnb specifically, I kind of knew that in my head, like, the kinds of roles I wanted was either an internship, a software engineering and apprenticeship, or an entry level software engineer. Those were the three roles I felt like I was comfortable applying to. And so I would apply to the or I would go on Google just looking for Software Engineer Apprenticeship, remote or Software Engineer Apprenticeship, bay Area. I think the main sites I would use was LinkedIn. I use Glass Door a lot and I use Angel List a lot. And I think those three really help. Specifically for Airbnb, though, how I found this job, I was just typing in like Software Engineer Apprenticeship, and I found a Medium article from a previous apprentice from 2020 and she just kind of wrote about her experience as an apprentice at Airbnb. And then at the very bottom it said, applications are open, like, apply here. And I just feel like it was kind of lucky. I wasn't really necessarily looking specifically for Airbnb. I just stumbled upon this article and I applied at the bottom and I kind of just made the deadline. It was like two days or a day before the application closed. But yeah, I know there's a lot of other resources. I can find it in my browser later on and add it in the woman who codes slack. But there's a lot of resources for companies that specifically will send you emails about apprenticeships, if that's what you're looking for, or internships as well. I'm sorry, I think I answered part of your question. What was the other part? Yeah, the other part, I guess the other part was focused on what the conversion kind of look like, right? Because it was a six month apprenticeship. And how do they decide how to convert you to full time and how long does that process take? Is there any pay increase, any negotiation involved in that? What does that look like? Yeah, so the conversion, I think that was something that all of the apprenticeship or apprentices had a lot of questions about. So, like I said, Airbnb accepts ten apprentices. And the nice thing that I really loved about Airbnb, which I don't know for sure if every other company does this, but my guess was that they do, is that they let us know right off the bat that you are not competing with each other to get a spot at the end. We ultimately want to convert every single one of you. So I thought that was something that really changed the tone for our apprenticeship, because it's not like I see these people as competition. I would see them more as just like, support and really leaning on them. So that was something that we figured out early on. And then throughout the six months, the Airbnb, we would have three performance reviews. So the first two, or the first one was done by the program manager. The second one, we were like on a team for the last three months, so we would have a team buddy while we were in the last three months. And the second review was done by our team buddy. And then the very last one was a combination of a bunch of people. So program manager, manager, team buddy, mentors, just people that support the connect apprenticeship, like HR. And they would just kind of go through each apprentice one by one and just take a look at our performance and decide if they wanted to give us a conversion. Ultimately, what I will say about Airbnb is that during the 2020 apprenticeship, 2021 apprenticeship, which was my Cohort, all ten for both Cohorts have been converted. So they really want to do a lot. And when they give you your performance review, like, let's say if there's areas for improvement, if you basically don't improve on those areas, you may not get the conversion offer at the end. But I think ultimately that's everyone's goal. So of course they're going to try their best to improve in those areas. And what is support look like internally? When you had received kind of that progress report, that feedback report, like, who was working with you as an apprentice? Were you working with one senior engineer? Were you working on a small team? What were the type of projects you were handed? Yeah, so I would say like entering my first job as a software engineer, that was probably what I was most nervous about, was like, okay, am I going to just kind of be thrown into this or what's the support level going to look like? And I will say that there was I felt like there was just a lot of support from so many people. So Airbnb, the apprenticeship is called the Connect Apprenticeship. So there was Connect office hours where there's senior engineers from all over the company that would volunteer their time to answer any questions we have, whether it's front end, mobile or back end. So there was the office hours folks. Each apprentice would get a mentor. On top of that, we also are currently for this year's Cohort. They have this new thing called the Connect Alumni program. So I'm a Connect Alumni host to somebody that's a current apprentice. So I can kind of like guide them and help them answer any questions about my experience and just validate how they're feeling in terms of imposter syndrome and things like that. Also there is within the apprenticeship itself, within all the apprentices, we had accountability groups so we would be paired with each other. And I think that was like our main group of support is to really lean in on each other. We also had an Airbnb. I signed up for another apprenticeship program. So basically the way the apprenticeship went was the first month and a half is like project based. So we would do three projects back to back. We would do front end, back end and mobile. And then after that we're doing this section that's called At Scale where we're doing a lot of studying about Airbnb and the architecture and it's more self study and shadowing engineers. And then the last section is the three months of team placement. So within the first section, throughout the entire time, we have our mentor. But my mentor was more back end and I felt like I might have needed a little more help in front end. So I decided to get another mentor. And through Airbnb, they have a lot of different mentorship programs. And also I leaned in a lot on my code reviewers. So when we submit, like our PR, we had one specific code reviewer assigned to us. And I think I really just leaned in on those people because thinking about it, like, at the end of the day, they volunteered their time to support the Connect program. And so I think they really want to do all that they can to help us out. So yeah, I would say like, overall I was very happy with the amount of support that was provided to us, even post apprenticeship, because I still feel like I'm very new and very junior at Airbnb. So it's nice to see that there's still like that amount of support. That's really good to hear and thanks for giving us context into that because I know it's one thing to find the apprenticeship, get the apprenticeship, but then what's the level of expectation to even converting? So when I also make sure that we leave some time for questions. So does anybody have anything else that they want to drop in the chat or just kind of raise your hand for? Either Marissa or I know that we have a couple of people who have been going through some boot camps and are currently looking. Yeah, I actually got a direct message from Megan. So what are you currently working on? So currently I'm an associate engineer on the payments team. So payments at Airbnb is like a huge.org and there's maybe about like eleven or twelve different teams. So specifically I'm on a Payments Incentives and Stored Values team. So what we do is we offer cash, credit coupons and just different incentives to the payments platform. I started off as a full stack engineer, but I transitioned a little more to front end. So currently I'm working on some front end work for the payments team. And then we have another question, which is do you think your technical background in technical recruitment helps in applications or understanding the process? So yeah, I think that's a good question. I do. I think that I'm very much of like an extrovert and like a people person. So I feel like being in technical recruitment, talking to engineers every day and interviewing some entry level candidates, I feel like it really gave me a voice, I guess, or comfortability in interviews and kind of like this mentality of I used to be really nervous in interviews and I used to stutter a lot and I still feel like I have work to do, I still say I'm a lot, but I think that I've kind of just had more of this mindset of like it's really just a conversation and at the end I'm the only person that is going to mess it up if I am so nervous to the point that I can't get my point across. So I would say it helped me in that sense where I just kind of got a little more confident in how I'm speaking in interviews. Yeah, I hope that answers your question. I am wondering specifically, you went through boot camp to transition. And as I. Shared earlier, I recently completed one. But what is the process, I guess, how are certificates perceived and what are the routes you can take that aren't going through an apprenticeship? Because even though there are many. It's fairly limited, and a couple of the ones that I'm interested in very recently closed. So I feel like the apprenticeship route kind of isn't an option for me right now. So what do you do when you're like, hey, I have a certificate, but I don't have that CS degree or that whatever else degree? Yeah. So I also applied to a lot of internships as well. And I know Paige and I were talking about earlier how internships might be more geared towards CS degree graduates, but I think a lot of companies, or a good amount of companies will still consider boot camp graduates, so I would definitely not shy away from that. I applied to a lot, and I think over my time in my job search, I applied to a lot of jobs. And I would say the amount of jobs that I got to the actual virtual on site stage was maybe like, five or six. And I think majority of those were internships. About three or four were internships, and one was an apprenticeship airbnb, and then the other one was more of, like I don't want to say it's an apprenticeship, but it was almost like another boot camp. But they pay you, so it's like they're teaching you while paying you minimum wage. But, yeah, I would definitely, like, not shy away from internships and even entry level job. I know some, like, new graduate job descriptions can be, like, a little intimidating for me. They definitely were. But I do know, like, a good amount of people that landed those jobs and really that their background was the same as mine. It was really just boot camp. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. It's very helpful. Yeah, of course. When I give Lucy the floor, and then I'll answer Lawrence's question. Hi, Marisa. Hi, everybody. Thank you for all the information. It's super valuable for us. My question is, you mentioned about the. Opportunity areas you receive after being in the program. How do you overcome that? How do you improve that for the future? Thank you. Yeah, so, like, different areas that I felt like I struggled in. Yeah. Yeah. I think boot camp is very quick. It's three months, and sometimes, I think specifically for hackbright, they taught us React in maybe, like, two or three days, which someone that has never used React before. That was kind of hard for me. I was like, I don't really know. I feel like I'm expected to know React now after these three days, but I don't. So, yeah, I think for me, like I said, just doing that extra certificate, that helped me a lot, and that helped me get more comfortable with actually attempting week code problem. I also decided, like I said, just focusing in or finding groups like women who code Hackney and focusing in on areas I knew that I was struggling in. And I think I was able to identify those areas by going through a lot of my material that I learned in my boot camp. So after my boot camp, I kind of just went through and kind of re studied a lot of the material and also just took a look at when I was doing my portfolio. Oh, I don't really understand this very well, so I might want to study more on this. I think that helped me just identify those areas and then just focus in on those, specifically when I was doing, like, a lot of self study in my job search. Amazing. Thank you. Yeah, no problem. And to answer Lawrence's question, they were talking to a recruiter who only does full time employees about internships, and they said it's separate for interns. So I guess the clarification I'm looking for, Lawrence, is do you mean there's only recruiters who focus on hiring interns? Yes. Okay. It really depends on the organization. Depending larger companies like Airbnb will have maybe recruiters who are focused on university specifically. I know that Marissa and I can both speak to our time at Motive. I actually oversaw interns alongside hiring senior and staff engineers. It's just a matter sometimes of, like, who has an interest or who has bandwidth. Currently at my company, Angela Spencer, I have another recruiter who's working on the internship cohorts. We actually just hired in our apprentice who's currently in their apprenticeship, and then in, I believe, six months time will probably open another cohort. So it just depends depending on the organization. I think a common rule of thumb is larger companies like the Airbnbs or Saunas the Fangs of the World might have recruiters that specialize specifically in university, which is kind of just code for internship. But going back to Marissa's point as well, I know that Marissa and I had spoken about my past company's internship program, and I know that she had gone through it and made it through the final onsite. So it's definitely doable. And don't let that be kind of like a barrier to entry for you applying apply to all of it. Right. Spread your resume kind of far and wide and use each experience as experience to kind of level up. It takes us even as a recruiter, when I'm looking for a job, it takes a couple of interviews for me to find my narrative and to find my groove. So just know that you're fine tuning and you're kind of, like, finessing overall what story you're trying to get across. I also wanted to chat about the hackbright community because I know a lot of you are going through boot camps, and Marissa went through hackbright. I believe Marissa had also you had partnered with me when we did some Hack right? Events. Yeah, I did. Okay, so since you've gone through Hacked right. And I know that they have a really strong kind of alum community, I wanted to know two things. Like, first and foremost, did you participate after you graduated in any of those events where you kind of like, showcased the project that you worked on. And then secondly, what does the alumni network look like now? And kind of like, how has it maybe helped you or how are you able to kind of participate or give back? Yeah, so I think definitely giving back is something I really enjoy. So another thing to mention, when I was in my job search, I also became just because I feel like the job search was so tedious for me, I needed to just get my mind off of it and just do something that was positive instead of seeing rejection after rejection. So I decided to become a mentor for a high school student. I was trying to learn software engineering. So I think that's also something that could possibly help boost up your resume, and it's also just something a way to give back as well. But to answer your question, I do enjoy giving back a lot. And I think in terms of hack, right, specifically, I've done one event like this where it's like how I got my job panel. I have considered becoming a mentor, but I think that's something that does intimidate me a little bit. So I probably might give it a little bit longer just so I gain a little more experience and can be really helpful to this person going through the boot camp. But that's definitely something that I do have planned for the future. And then in terms of the alumni network, so right now we do have a Slack channel that has all of the alumni in it, and it's pretty active. There's a lot of people that post a lot of, like, job postings, and then I believe it's every month or every two weeks, we have a newsletter that comes out from the career staff, and they send in this newsletter, like at least 15 jobs. It's just depending on the level. So they'll have a section that has entry level software engineering jobs, middle level senior, and they even have a section for internships and apprenticeships. They also have a section for events. So I think that's been very helpful. And the career staff, I mean, I feel like the ones that motivated me to keep going when I was in my job search, they've been very open to any alum, putting time on their calendar if they're struggling with their job search or just want to talk about anything. Yeah, the power of network is pretty important. And if you did any of those events, maybe after you had graduated, I think I don't know if it's like half night or it's like when you kind of do like a little bit of a road show showcasing the project that you did, were there many companies? I mean, I know it was during the pandemic, and it was probably virtual, but did you see at least maybe within your cohort kind of success of companies that participated and some engineers kind of moving into a job opportunity with them. Yes, I think we had it was called like our demo night where all of us would go through and it was virtual. So we just kind of had a pre recorded video, like a YouTube video of us giving a demo of our project and then we would give like a quick introduction live and then they would play our video. And there was, I would say maybe like 15 companies, recruiters engineers from each company and they would have each breakout room and we can kind of go visit whichever breakout room we were interested and just share our contact information or LinkedIn with them. And I do know some people, I would say a lot of us got interviews with those companies, but maybe like two out of my class actually got roles at those companies. And I don't know if that might just be like personal preference, if they might have found another role that they were interested in more. Definitely when we had had similar experience too, right, when we were recruiting specifically out of hack, where we did get a lot of people who made it to interviews. But as we think about top of funnel, that starts to narrow as we get a little bit further and I think the overall feedback was just, again, some of these boot camps are really quick. Right. So I think going back to your point of like you are continuing to self teach along the way and prep and participate in kind of these women who code hack nights or any other resources that you have available, I think they're going to continue to help up level you as you start to apply. Yeah, for sure. I can't stress enough, like the importance of continuing your learning after boot camp. I think that's really ultimately what helped me solidify the areas that I felt like I was struggling in. And also, like I said, just the job search itself is really difficult. So I also would stress the importance of taking a break from your laptop and just knowing when to walk away just for a little bit and focus on what makes you happy. So whether that's the gym or painting or anything like that, I think that's also very important as well. But yeah, I'm happy to answer any other questions. I know we're kind of close to time if anyone has any questions. Yeah, I have a quick question. I think this could be for a page as well. Again, talking about the positions to which the recent graduate should apply to. What is like the ranking of the titles. So if you're looking at entry level, what is the title of an entry level? Yeah, it could read associate, Junior or just software engineer. Right. And then you also have intern, an apprentice. So those are probably the five that you should be looking for creating a search around, depending on some companies. Some companies are very flat leveling. Like my company at Angeles, we have sue, and then we have Senior Sue. Sue is pretty entry level, right? Because we don't necessarily have a lot of internships or apprenticeships for somebody with maybe a year or two of experience or under. That like two years or under. Yeah, I agree. I think when I was looking, I would look for a lot of those titles. I also would look for some that might say New Grad, because even though some new grad might say, we want you to have all this experience, the worst they can do is just say no. Yes. I think you're almost at time and you ask me questions. Anyone? This was very good discussion around getting the insights. Yeah. Thank you so much. Of course. Thank you for asking all the questions. And thank you, Marisa, for all the insights that you gave around your journey. How did you apply? How did you prepare? And it was definitely useful, even the process that the actual intern apprenticeship had, where you discussed about the performance reviews and stuff, that was very helpful to know that, okay, this is how it is even after joining, not just like the preferred part. And thank you, Page, for asking such wonderful questions. I'm sure everyone was glued to your questions. What's coming up next? So thanks for asking those. And everyone, I've posted some links in the chat. Do join the Slack channel. Connect with Page or Marisa. Their LinkedIn profiles are in the Meetup Description page, so just reach out to them if you want to connect individually or if you want to connect on Slack. We can create a group and just talk more about apprenticeships. Also, Marisa, I can reach out to you to get the links and the resources that you mentioned, and I can post them on the meeting page as well. So we can do that as well. Yeah, I can definitely file knows and I'll talk it to you. Sure. Thank you, everyone, for joining. Have a good rest of the day. Thank you. Bye.